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We Need to Design Health Care Reform That Puts Patients Before Profits

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Re: We Need to Design Health Care Reform That Puts Patients Before Profits

#81

Post by EpicEng »

leetcrew wrote: post #40
kerkeslager wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With my skillset (software engineer) I can easily pull low six figures. And I'm confident that doctors provide more value than I do. I'm pretty sure I've never saved anyone's life. So I have zero problem paying doctors 2 or 3 times my pay, which is about what you're saying they get paid. Health insurance CEOs make, in some cases, literally hundreds of times my salary, while literally killing people for profit. I'm go…

not sure what kind of work you do, but if you make tools that save people time and you have many users, it could add up to many lifetimes not spent on some menial task. not quite the same, but I would argue that helping many people allocate their time towards activities they actually value is just as important as saving individual lives.

>I would argue that helping many people allocate their time towards activities they actually value is just as important as saving individual lives.

I think you'd pretty easily get trounced making that argument. People would much rather be alive to do something less efficiently than to... not be alive at all. This argument is a bit insane to me.

Re: We Need to Design Health Care Reform That Puts Patients Before Profits

#82

Post by zentiggr »

dgzl wrote: post #59
Merrill wrote: post #52

This can be done by converting "for profit" corporations into "not for profit" corporations and having them finance investments with debt instead of equity.

And what about the rights of the stakeholders of those for-profit corporations?

If those stakeholders are sponsoring the cash grab mentality that has the health industry so messed up right now, then screw em.

Sell off every private company involved and legally mandate that they can only sell to non-profit entities, and let every shareholder that's gouging everyone else scream or cry or whine however they want. The more noise they make, the more harm you know they were causing.

Sick and tired of greed making all these layers of corporate corruption, market lockup, government process tailoring, and outright deception the status quo.

Re: We Need to Design Health Care Reform That Puts Patients Before Profits

#83

Post by TuringNYC »

kerkeslager wrote: post #32
helpPeople wrote: post #6

Until Americans find Physicians (and Pharmacists) as the enemy, it will never happen. They(AMA and APA) are top lobbyists that entrench themselves using monopolistic practices. Sure school can cost 500k, but with 200 to 300k+ per year salaries, they can kill that debt. (This is their common defense)

With my skillset (software engineer) I can easily pull low six figures. And I'm confident that doctors provide more value than I do. I'm pretty sure I've never saved anyone's life. So I have zero problem paying doctors 2 or 3 times my pay, which is about what you're saying they get paid. Health insurance CEOs make, in some cases, literally hundreds of times my salary, while literally killing people for profit. I'm go…

>> With my skillset (software engineer) I can easily pull low six figures. And I'm confident that doctors provide more value than I do. I'm pretty sure I've never saved anyone's life. So I have zero problem paying doctors 2 or 3 times my pay, which is about what you're saying they get paid.

There are many problems comparing software pay to healthcare pay.

- A large portion of software jobs are in the Bay Area, you are not being paid for your software job, you are being paid a giant CoL premium that gets taken away by landowners.

Doctors on the other hand have jobs available all across the country and need not live in super-expensive areas. Further, their pay usually goes UP as they go to less expensive areas .

- Medical salaries/jobs are not cyclical and do not suddenly disappear in droves as tech jobs did in 2001-2003 (countrywide) / 2008-2009 (NY+).

With tech jobs, your low six figure pay is also paying you a hazard premium which i'm hoping youre saving for the next down cycle.

- Many software engineers will tell you about age discrimination -- supposedly it gets harder and harder to find a job as you age. It is an unlicensed field, so there is theoretically unlimited supply. Further, there isnt a cartel-like mechanism (i.e., AMA and residency programs) to constrict supply. Thus, you are like a less extreme football player -- you make low six figures and then you pleateau or go down over time.

Doctors make more with experience and there is no age discrimination that is spoken of.

Depending on how many workers get imported on any given year, there are 300-500% more tech workers imported (e.g., with H1b) than all medical school graduates per year: https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/students-residents/interac...

There are near zero imported medical specialists in the US. There are imported primary care workers, but those arent where the big billings are coming from. There is literally no downward pressure on medical salaries like there is in the US for tech.

Re: We Need to Design Health Care Reform That Puts Patients Before Profits

#84

Post by DonnyV »

rayiner wrote: post #34

The U.S. spends $3.5 trillion annually on healthcare. Worldwide profits for the 112 publicly traded healthcare industry companies amount to $50 billion per quarter: https://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2018/11/12/Chart-Day-Big-Phar... . Even if all those profits are allocated to the U.S., that's about 5.7% of healthcare spending. (And completely consistent with most other industries.) Hyper-focusing on profits is misguided…

First of all I don't trust profit numbers of any large corporation. There are so many ways that large corporations can hide profit.

So lets pay attention to revenue. UnitedHealth alone generated $200 billion in 2017. https://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20180116/NEWS/18011...

Yeah there might be some fat there.

Re: We Need to Design Health Care Reform That Puts Patients Before Profits

#86

Post by c0nducktr »

tptacek wrote: post #67
thaumasiotes wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They weren't worried about it, but it was happening anyway.

Your argument is that a nonprofit Japanese restaurant could have delivered a better experience to me?

I'd wager a nonprofit Japanese restaurant could have provided your meal at a lower cost.

Re: We Need to Design Health Care Reform That Puts Patients Before Profits

#87

Post by [deleted] »

kshacker wrote: post #78
rayiner wrote: post #34

The U.S. spends $3.5 trillion annually on healthcare. Worldwide profits for the 112 publicly traded healthcare industry companies amount to $50 billion per quarter: https://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2018/11/12/Chart-Day-Big-Phar... . Even if all those profits are allocated to the U.S., that's about 5.7% of healthcare spending. (And completely consistent with most other industries.) Hyper-focusing on profits is misguided…

Hmmm. What is profit? If a company pays its CEO 10 million dollars, it is not stated profit, but that's a cost we could live without. If a CEO can write off a few million, a few 10s of millions in corporate gala spending, it is not stated profit, but that's a cost we could live without. I am sure if we dig deeper into cost per patient between Medicare and between lets pick a company, you will realize that you can do…

[deleted]

Re: We Need to Design Health Care Reform That Puts Patients Before Profits

#88

Post by Merrill »

dgzl wrote: post #59
Merrill wrote: post #52

This can be done by converting "for profit" corporations into "not for profit" corporations and having them finance investments with debt instead of equity.

And what about the rights of the stakeholders of those for-profit corporations?

We could do a debt for equity swap. Set up a Government Sponsored Entity like Fannie Mae to issue bonds equivalent to the market value of the equity. Essentially a government sponsored leveraged buyout.

Re: We Need to Design Health Care Reform That Puts Patients Before Profits

#89

Post by leetcrew »

EpicEng wrote: post #81
leetcrew wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not sure what kind of work you do, but if you make tools that save people time and you have many users, it could add up to many lifetimes not spent on some menial task. not quite the same, but I would argue that helping many people allocate their time towards activities they actually value is just as important as saving individual lives.

>I would argue that helping many people allocate their time towards activities they actually value is just as important as saving individual lives. I think you'd pretty easily get trounced making that argument. People would much rather be alive to do something less efficiently than to... not be alive at all. This argument is a bit insane to me.

think about the people you care about. would you rather live more years or spend more time with them over a shorter life? what would they prefer? it's an inherently subjective question, and I don't think the answer is obvious. I certainly don't think one of the answers is "insane".

Re: We Need to Design Health Care Reform That Puts Patients Before Profits

#90

Post by tptacek »

c0nducktr wrote: post #86
tptacek wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is that a nonprofit Japanese restaurant could have delivered a better experience to me?

I'd wager a nonprofit Japanese restaurant could have provided your meal at a lower cost.

How? Why doesn't anyone open a nonprofit restaurant and outcompete the for-profit ones?
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