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J.S. Bach the Rebel: The subversive practice of a canonical composer

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Re: J.S. Bach the Rebel: The subversive practice of a canonical composer

#71

Post by madhadron »

nerdponx wrote: post #7
motohagiography wrote: post #4

Seems tendentious to secularize Bach. There's something to be said for deistic awe for creating great art. If you were just getting interested, here are some contemporary performances: BWV 1006 by Nigel Kennedy: https://youtu.be/nWx4pIe7FoE?t=179 BWV 988 (goldberg variations) Glenn Gould https://youtu.be/p4yAB37wG5s?t=169 from BWV 816, Gigue, Andreas Schiff: https://youtu.be/f_U0lm6HZMk?t=777

Do you have any good links for performances in the period style and instruments? THese are great in their own right, but I'd love to know how this music might have sounded in Bach's day.

Someone's already mentioned Tafelmusik. I'll throw in some of my favorites as well:

Giuliano Carmagnola playing the Bach violin and harpsichord sonatas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziZPanY50-c

Jordi Savall and Ton Koopman, viola da gamba and harpsichord sonatas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HayeiZb5CUA

Rachel Podger does quite a good recording of the Bach sonatas and partitas, but every violinist plays these (I mean that quite literally; violin competitions, modern or Baroque, regularly require a movement from these along side whatever else you do) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2e3eoOXeNs

also a master class of her teaching the Chaconne from these, which vies for the greatest piece ever written for violin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhcPDo3UPw0

Trevor Pinnock and the English Concert, Bach 4 harpsichord concerto (crank the volume on this one like you're listening to metal) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA1L0SsEXxU&list=PLF81B6EFFA...

I'm going to stop now because I could do this for hours before we even get into other composers of the period.

Re: J.S. Bach the Rebel: The subversive practice of a canonical composer

#72

Post by madhadron »

olau wrote: post #15
nerdponx wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any good links for performances in the period style and instruments? THese are great in their own right, but I'd love to know how this music might have sounded in Bach's day.

Here's one on clavichord: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_Nto_-j5Ao

I remember an amazing concert in an old stone church in Italy. The first half was upstairs on pedalled harpsichord. Then we all went down into the vaults of the crypt, crowded in, and the second half was on clavichord in this tiny, echoing space. The performer managed to find a space you could use to perform with that instrument, and the kind of audience that shows up to such a thing was dead silent.

Re: J.S. Bach the Rebel: The subversive practice of a canonical composer

#73

Post by madhadron »

bloak wrote: post #50
mikorym wrote: post #16

Maybe he was a dissident, but his music is still boring to me. Or maybe his predecessors were just so boring that he was the first step away? I usually don't understand from his music why he is celebrated. Is it that he is just historically important? Like the discovery of logarithmic tuning of sqrt_12(2)? It could also be that I am just moved more by the romantic era. Mozart generally gets relegated lower in my list…

As I understand it, we don't know how Bach tuned his keyboard instruments. We know he cared about tuning and tuned his own instruments, but apparently there are reasons to believe that he didn't use equal temperament. Bradley Lehman has a bizarre theory, which you could look up if you're interested. I am not qualified to have an opinion on whether it's a good theory.

We know that most of his performance was done using meantone systems, like the rest of his contemporaries. They are are quite precisely known. What his well tempering might have been is a matter of conjecture and many fascinating proposals have been put forward. I had a great time playing in the orchestra for the Bach 4 harpsichord concerto trying out one particularly wild experiment.

Re: J.S. Bach the Rebel: The subversive practice of a canonical composer

#74

Post by madhadron »

mikorym wrote: post #16

Maybe he was a dissident, but his music is still boring to me. Or maybe his predecessors were just so boring that he was the first step away? I usually don't understand from his music why he is celebrated. Is it that he is just historically important? Like the discovery of logarithmic tuning of sqrt_12(2)? It could also be that I am just moved more by the romantic era. Mozart generally gets relegated lower in my list…

I hear this a lot from people, and I think much of it is due to the milquetoast performance practice for Baroque music that was until recently widespread outside musicological circles. I remember how I was taught to play Bach orchestral suites or Corelli sonatas when I was young, and it was mind numbing and dull. Fortunately my father was also playing me Christopher Hogwood and company at home so I knew something was up.

Re: J.S. Bach the Rebel: The subversive practice of a canonical composer

#76

Post by perl4ever »

Bach's "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring"[1] was one of the demos on the Amiga 1000 that I still remember. Impressive in 1986. I was looking for it and couldn't find it on Youtube a few months ago, but that may be because I perennially confuse it with Beethoven's Ode to Joy.

[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=522uWGQV134

Re: J.S. Bach the Rebel: The subversive practice of a canonical composer

#77

Post by mastazi »

tim333 wrote: post #61
mastazi wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bach knew about pianos, he even worked as a “piano salesman” for a period of time > Bach went on to become an agent for Silbermann, selling his pianos in Leipzig. There’s even a receipt signed by Bach on May 9, 1749, selling a “Piano et Forte” to a Polish count, Jan Casimir von Branitzky. From https://notanothermusichistorycliche.blogspot.com/2016/07/di...

Ah ok I got that a bit wrong. Though he would have been 64 at the time of sale and died a year after so I guess they were around in the later part of his life.

You didn’t get it completely wrong in the sense that piano was in its infancy at the time and nowhere near the capabilities and sonic features of modern pianos. So it is possible that when Bach wrote his “fur klavier” (“for keyboard instruments”) compositions, he didn’t have piano in mind. Probably his favourite keyboard instrument was the lute-harpsichord since he owned one https://baroquemusic.org/barluthp.html

Re: J.S. Bach the Rebel: The subversive practice of a canonical composer

#78

Post by mastazi »

jacquesm wrote: post #58
mastazi wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bach knew about pianos, he even worked as a “piano salesman” for a period of time > Bach went on to become an agent for Silbermann, selling his pianos in Leipzig. There’s even a receipt signed by Bach on May 9, 1749, selling a “Piano et Forte” to a Polish count, Jan Casimir von Branitzky. From https://notanothermusichistorycliche.blogspot.com/2016/07/di...

Bach's criticism of Silbermann's earlier pianos led to substantial improvements.

Yes, he hated pianos when he first had the opportunity to try them. It is possible however that the first Silbermann prototypes, which is what he tried, were of low quality, even compared to other early pianos of the time. He certainly changed his opinion over time though and I agree with you that Silbermann must have listened to Bach’s early criticism. Anyway it is probable that Bach’s favourite keyboard instrument was the lute-harpsichord (see other link I posted in this thread).

Re: J.S. Bach the Rebel: The subversive practice of a canonical composer

#79

Post by dang »

mikorym wrote: post #32
mikorym wrote: post #16

Maybe he was a dissident, but his music is still boring to me. Or maybe his predecessors were just so boring that he was the first step away? I usually don't understand from his music why he is celebrated. Is it that he is just historically important? Like the discovery of logarithmic tuning of sqrt_12(2)? It could also be that I am just moved more by the romantic era. Mozart generally gets relegated lower in my list…

Downvoting opinions just because you disagree is specifically discouraged in the HN guidelines.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16574021

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314

Re: J.S. Bach the Rebel: The subversive practice of a canonical composer

#80

Post by mikorym »

nosianu wrote: post #48
mikorym wrote: post #16

Maybe he was a dissident, but his music is still boring to me. Or maybe his predecessors were just so boring that he was the first step away? I usually don't understand from his music why he is celebrated. Is it that he is just historically important? Like the discovery of logarithmic tuning of sqrt_12(2)? It could also be that I am just moved more by the romantic era. Mozart generally gets relegated lower in my list…

Then why do you even bother (and us too) by clicking on a story explicitly about Bach according to the headline? Imagine doing that in real life. Every time you witness a conversation about something that doesn't interest you you go over there and tell them.

It could change my opinion.
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