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Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

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Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really arguing that Scotland is a "truer" country somehow than Catalonia?

No, I'm not arguing that Scotland is a "truer" country than Catalonia. The comment I replied to claimed that most modern separatist/independence movements are caused by historical grievance and ego and not present day issues. I made two points: 1. Scotland leaving the UK is not comparable to Catalonia leaving Spain. Scotland is a country within the UK. What I mean by country here is that the UK considers Scotland a d…

Cornish independence movements would be a closer example I think as the UK has never considered Cornwall a separate country

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#62
TLDR: Everyone seems to be assuming that there's a single point of failure, and someone gets to see all the information. I would definitely not build the thing like that if I was the one doing it.

There's not much information about how the application works. What we know is:

- The app seems to use a RetroShare network behind-the-scenes [1].

- RetroShare is a decentralized, serverless, peer-to-peer, meshed, distributed network. When you join you generate a pgp key for yourself and then add "friends" by grabbing their public keys.

- The app needs to be activated through a QR generated from another person's app who's already in.

- The app monitors your location and only shows you close-by actions.

What I would like to confirm:

- Whether the QR is the same for everyone, the same for every person sharing it, or generated on a by-share basis

- Whether RetroShare is actually used or not.

Assumptions I make:

- There's a non-trivial organization behind this

- The organizers do not want to be discovered, and want to have as much "plausible deniability" as possible (they are risking jail time)

Given all the above, here's how I would build this application:

- Create 3 (or 5) "root" keys. The very top people in the org get those.

- When you join the network (by scanning someone's QR), you join the RetroShare network, but also get the root keys id's.

- The app is now ready to handle some message types from the root keys:

1. STOP. Accepted when signed by any of the active root keys. The app stops sending messages.

2. ADD_ZONE. Accepted when signed by a majority of the root keys. Adds a new zone (a geographical bounding box) along with the public key of the zone's commander (someone who can organize stuff in that area).

3. REMOVE_ZONE. Accepted when signed by at least two root keys. Removes a zone because it either has no activity or has been compromised.

- During normal operation, the app tracks the currently active zones and the corresponding zone-masters. It monitors your location, and if you are within a zone it sends "in-zone" notifications to the zone-master.

- The zone-master collects such notifications and sends direct messages to people in their zone when an action is to take place.

As I see it, this would be the simplest setup to accomplish the organizations' goals without much possibility for compromise. As soon as a zone is compromized it can be nuked, and the whole thing can be nuked quickly if some root is compromised too.

You could then start refining this basic idea with extra functionalities. For instance:

- Add/remove root keys to avoid having to nuke everything if a root gets compromised.

- Get the app to send "in-zone" messages to random zones from time to time and then filter received actions according to actual location. This would prevent the organizers (or someone who gets to observe the traffic) from inferring the users' real location.

[1] https://retroshare.cc/

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#63
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't so long ago that the Catalan language was banned. People who were alive then are still alive today. It's more convenient to buy an umbrella on a sunny day. If they get independence today, they can spend years building up the strength they need to keep out those who would try to destroy their community later on. To describe anything as "historical grievance" that isn't happening right now is naive. It hasn't…

>It wasn't so long ago that the Catalan language was banned Catalan language was never banned

The Second Spanish Republic (1931–1939) saw a brief period of tolerance, with most restrictions against Catalan being lifted.[6] Despite orthographic standardization in 1913 and the official status of the language during the Second Spanish Republic (1931–39) the Francoist dictatorship banned the use of Catalan in schools and in the public administration between 1939 and 1975.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language#Spain:_18th_t...

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#64
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the minimum unit of land where you accept that a grouped majority should be allowed to separate? If Girona wants to separate and Barcelona doesn't do you accept the deal?

I think you are implying that if we let really small regions secede, then every town and village could ask for secession if they disagree with provincial or federal policies. And a world with every town/village/city it's own country will be much worse than the current one. I think it's a good question. We can ask ourselves, what the competing principles here are, as the "right to political self-determination" is not…

> And a world with every town/village/city it's own country will be much worse than the current one.

Citation needed.

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#65
post #55
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The results of the TRUE/LEGAL/non-SCAM elections are public for anybody to see it. Five millions of people can vote, 2 millions voted independentist parties. Three millions NOT. Is an easy calculus. The majority of people do not want to lose their EU and spanish status, and they never wanted it.

"TRUE/LEGAL/non-SCAM" elections are not a referendum about independence, whether you like it or not. They are evidence, evidence that doesn't confirm the very strong claim that "less than 50% of people want independence". According to the latest such election (2019 spanish general elections), we had [1]: 1.626.001 votes for parties clearly supporting independence (ERC + JxCat + Front Republicà) 1.784.129 votes for pa…

Therefore the data support perfectly the statement that "In Catalonia less than 50% of people want independence". Nobody stopped they to freely vote other options.

But this is a trap, a fake discussion, because the independentist people in Catalonia don't own the place.

The spanish constitution grants rights to all citizens in Spain to share the whole territory, use the public spaces and infrastructures in their benefit, enjoy nature and stablish, work and live peacefully in any point of the nation that they would desire and choose, without being bullied by the local sheriff or politician.

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#66
post #54
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with Catalonia is that there is no majority for independence

The problem with Catalonia is that young people has been brainwashed in school for 40 years. Independence is neither a goal nor desired for the majority of the people living there

You managed to contradict yourself in only two sentences, bravo!

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#67
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will give you 5 millions of reasons. The lives and patrimony of oppressed non-separatist people living in Cuckoloonia that are exhausted of being harassed day and night by a minority of criminals in power and their army of brainwashed puppets. Last night the separatists burned cars and bikes, really happy to have started finally their exciting new war in the real world. They crave for blood and having marthyrs to s…

The Catalan independence movement is peaceful. Most violence is done by payed spaniards pretending to be catalan separatists. We already know all the spanish dirty tricks.

Are you sure? This does not seem peaceful to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYuwTqahNr4

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#68

I have trouble with first world separatist/independence movements (Quebec, Scotland, Basque, Catalan, etc) where it seems there is little real present day issue other than what seems from the outside to be historical grievance and ego.

Does it matter? If a locally grouped majority wants to seperate from a bigger structure they should be allowed to, everything else is evil.

Nobody is trying to stop they to migrate to any other country of the planet that they prefer. People does this all the time.

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are implying that if we let really small regions secede, then every town and village could ask for secession if they disagree with provincial or federal policies. And a world with every town/village/city it's own country will be much worse than the current one. I think it's a good question. We can ask ourselves, what the competing principles here are, as the "right to political self-determination" is not…

> And a world with every town/village/city it's own country will be much worse than the current one. Citation needed.

That is not my position. That is what I assumed the parent's position was.

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What majority? In Catalonia less than 50% of people want independence. It just so happens that the minority is louder.

Catalans did a referendum for independence. The Yes won by 90%. But the referendum was not legal according to the Spanish law. The spanish won't allow a legal referendum because they now there is a majority who want independence.

When only people who want independence vote on the referendum, obviously you are going to get such results. If the people opposing independence don't consider the referendum to be legitimate (since you know, it is illegal and against the constitution, and not recognized by the central government), then they are not going to vote on it. And hence the question, why doesn't the Spanish government allow it? Because it is an issue that affects all Spanish citizens, therefore, we should all have a vote on the matter.
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