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Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

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Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#51

Post by Oletros »

nomusuari wrote: post #42
oliverx0 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What majority? In Catalonia less than 50% of people want independence. It just so happens that the minority is louder.

Catalans did a referendum for independence. The Yes won by 90%. But the referendum was not legal according to the Spanish law. The spanish won't allow a legal referendum because they now there is a majority who want independence.

> Catalans did a referendum for independence.

No, Catalans didn't did a referendum, Catalan Government did on illegal referendum

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#52

Post by pvaldes »

nomusuari wrote: post #42
oliverx0 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What majority? In Catalonia less than 50% of people want independence. It just so happens that the minority is louder.

Catalans did a referendum for independence. The Yes won by 90%. But the referendum was not legal according to the Spanish law. The spanish won't allow a legal referendum because they now there is a majority who want independence.

Again, this "referendum" was a scam designed to have an excuse to push their agenda further. Was totalitarism travestied as democracy carefully designed to steal 47 millions of spaniards from their constitutional rigths

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#53

Post by Oletros »

enriquto wrote: post #32
ViViDboarder wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, my comment below is about separatism in first world nations. If a region is attempting to separate from an oppressive regime, I 100% agree they should. Generally I tend to support the idea of folks being in control of their own destiny, but I can see why a larger government would not want to allow it. The smaller local government only needs to worry about what is best for itself, while the larger governm…

> To be clear, my comment below is about separatism in first world nations. If a region is attempting to separate from an oppressive regime,... In that case, we are talking about a first world state that is also an oppressive regime (jails political opponents, has paramilitary grops, engages in state terrorism against its own people, etc.) What happens, then? Do you demote spain as third world (I would totally agreee…

> In that case, we are talking about a first world state that is also an oppressive regime

Are you talking about Spain? Because if you're, youre' compeltely wrong

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#54

Post by pvaldes »

Oletros wrote: post #50
WanderPanda wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it matter? If a locally grouped majority wants to seperate from a bigger structure they should be allowed to, everything else is evil.

The problem with Catalonia is that there is no majority for independence

The problem with Catalonia is that young people has been brainwashed in school for 40 years. Independence is neither a goal nor desired for the majority of the people living there

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#55

Post by kilburn »

pvaldes wrote: post #47
kilburn wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In Catalonia less than 50% of people want independence. Citation needed. The main historical request by pro-independence people has always been for a vote to be held on the matter. Spain has always replied that there will never be such vote.

The results of the TRUE/LEGAL/non-SCAM elections are public for anybody to see it. Five millions of people can vote, 2 millions voted independentist parties. Three millions NOT. Is an easy calculus. The majority of people do not want to lose their EU and spanish status, and they never wanted it.

"TRUE/LEGAL/non-SCAM" elections are not a referendum about independence, whether you like it or not. They are evidence, evidence that doesn't confirm the very strong claim that "less than 50% of people want independence".

According to the latest such election (2019 spanish general elections), we had [1]:

1.626.001 votes for parties clearly supporting independence (ERC + JxCat + Front Republicà)

1.784.129 votes for parties clearly opposing independence (PSOE + Cs + PP)

678.451 votes for parties that claim other issues are more important (UP + PACMA)

The total numbers for/against independence are not clear and could swing either way. We would need either much more skewed results (to extrapolate from them) or an actual vote on the issue to support the claim that was made here.

Note that I haven't made the opposite claim (more than 50% of people want independence). I just said that in the current situation the way to know would be to hold a vote, and that Spain has always opposed this option.

[1] https://www.abc.es/elecciones/elecciones-generales/resultado...

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#56

Post by pvaldes »

hellllllllooo wrote: post #21
WanderPanda wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it matter? If a locally grouped majority wants to seperate from a bigger structure they should be allowed to, everything else is evil.

I can think of non-evil reasons to stop secession. If the US South wanted to secede to continue slavery is it evil to prevent that to protect people?

I will give you 5 millions of reasons. The lives and patrimony of oppressed non-separatist people living in Cuckoloonia that are exhausted of being harassed day and night by a minority of criminals in power and their army of brainwashed puppets.

Last night the separatists burned cars and bikes, really happy to have started finally their exciting new war in the real world. They crave for blood and having marthyrs to show to the word since years ago. They even have a name for it: WARcelona. Daddy's little psycho and mommy's little soldier.

Some days ago President Torra asked for rebellion against the same government that he swore loyalty. If is not surrealist enough, later he send the autonomic police against the same children. An adolescent lose an eye. A french tourist suffered a heart attack and died after being forced to walk 4 Km to reach the airport. A father must toke their baby and run away from his home in the middle of the nigth because the idiots were burning tires at the street and the smoke goes to the first floor of the next house. They were about to axfixiate the family living above without ever noticing it, or caring for anything. Do you know what was the answer that they gave to this father?: "take it easy, man"

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#57

Post by enriquto »

Oletros wrote: post #53
enriquto wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To be clear, my comment below is about separatism in first world nations. If a region is attempting to separate from an oppressive regime,... In that case, we are talking about a first world state that is also an oppressive regime (jails political opponents, has paramilitary grops, engages in state terrorism against its own people, etc.) What happens, then? Do you demote spain as third world (I would totally agreee…

> In that case, we are talking about a first world state that is also an oppressive regime Are you talking about Spain? Because if you're, youre' compeltely wrong

Yes, I am. I have lived more than 30 years under the illegitimate spanish occupation and I know what I'm talking about. Now, being an expat, I still follow the events closely, because a large part of my family is still there.

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#58

Post by nomusuari »

Oletros wrote: post #51
nomusuari wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Catalans did a referendum for independence. The Yes won by 90%. But the referendum was not legal according to the Spanish law. The spanish won't allow a legal referendum because they now there is a majority who want independence.

> Catalans did a referendum for independence. No, Catalans didn't did a referendum, Catalan Government did on illegal referendum

It was mostly payed by the catalan population and this is the reason why the Spanish "judges" have to lie so much to jail Catalan politicians for misuse of public funds. Anyway the point is we won by 90% and if we did another legal referendum we would win again and that is why the spaniards will never allow a legal referendum.

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#59

Post by nomusuari »

pvaldes wrote: post #56
hellllllllooo wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can think of non-evil reasons to stop secession. If the US South wanted to secede to continue slavery is it evil to prevent that to protect people?

I will give you 5 millions of reasons. The lives and patrimony of oppressed non-separatist people living in Cuckoloonia that are exhausted of being harassed day and night by a minority of criminals in power and their army of brainwashed puppets. Last night the separatists burned cars and bikes, really happy to have started finally their exciting new war in the real world. They crave for blood and having marthyrs to s…

The Catalan independence movement is peaceful. Most violence is done by payed spaniards pretending to be catalan separatists. We already know all the spanish dirty tricks.

Re: Catalan separatists have tooled up with decentralized app for civil disobedience

#60

Post by AlexTrask »

pvaldes wrote: post #45
squiggleblaz wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't so long ago that the Catalan language was banned. People who were alive then are still alive today. It's more convenient to buy an umbrella on a sunny day. If they get independence today, they can spend years building up the strength they need to keep out those who would try to destroy their community later on. To describe anything as "historical grievance" that isn't happening right now is naive. It hasn't…

>It wasn't so long ago that the Catalan language was banned Catalan language was never banned

Catalan language was banned from public life during the Franco's dictatorship. Thats not so far, my fathers lived this
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