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The US nuclear forces’ messaging system finally got rid of its floppy disks

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Re: The US nuclear forces’ messaging system finally got rid of its floppy disks

#51
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. "Move fast and break things" might not be the best idea in this particular case.

Isn‘t this the very definition of an ICBM?

Interestingly move fast and break things is the last thing an ICBM should be sneaking off and doing.

Yet it definitely is designed for that.

I wonder if they ever feels frustrated.

Re: The US nuclear forces’ messaging system finally got rid of its floppy disks

#52
In the 80's, I was the project engineer for the Air Force DSP satellite ground communications network upgrade. This system used a 20 MB Bernoulli Box to store the early warning messages. It was replaced in 2005.

This was the system used to pass early warning to the Patriot anti-missile (Scud) batteries during the first Gulf War.

Internetworking the Air Force system to an Army system was considered revolutionary in 1991. Today, it would be equivalent to "stone knives and bearskins".

Re: The US nuclear forces’ messaging system finally got rid of its floppy disks

#53

So when we upgrade the hardware, how much of it will be sourced from China? Is it even possible to fully secure the supply chain? Introducing any outside code or hardware is a liability. Unless there is a really urgent problem, I think they should just freeze their entire computer platform, that way they can eliminate any chance of any new threats. I can not possibly imagine any cost justification for doing so. I hav…

"The thought of some ux monkey using npm anywhere near our ICBMs makes my physically ill."

Almost spilled my coffee reading this one.

Re: The US nuclear forces’ messaging system finally got rid of its floppy disks

#54
post #35

" Air Force software development hubs like Boston-based Kessel Run or Los Angeles-based Kobayashi Maru" Is this article a troll, or is the Air Force just trying to be 'cool'.

is the Air Force just trying to be 'cool'. Why wouldn’t the Air Force be full of geeks?

[deleted]

Re: The US nuclear forces’ messaging system finally got rid of its floppy disks

#55
post #41

> You can't hack something that doesn't have an IP address. That's a very risky assumption to make. There are many attack vectors besides TCP/IP: social engineering, side-channel attacks, EM pulse, backdoors in ICs...

Remote sabotage from anywhere and spies roaming the cooridors are quite different things.

Well, that's the funny thing.

The claim is: "No IP address == unhackable."

So, for a second stop assuming we are in a nuclear bunker. There are many unconnected systems that are still hackable. For example, the Stuxnet worm was able to infiltrate an unconnected SCADA system using USB exploits. Many systems radiate data in EM and ultrasonic (side-channel). And obviously, there are known and unknown backdoors in PCBs, ECs, and ICs. All of these do not require an IP address.

I would even argue that having an IP address can improve security by increasing monitoring, improving continuous security updates and decreasing a false sense of security. This was the original goal of DARPA all along.

Re: The US nuclear forces’ messaging system finally got rid of its floppy disks

#56

> While SACC’s hardware is decades old, its software is constantly refreshed by young Air Force programmers who learn software development skills at Offutt’s Rapid Agile Development Lab. I am not so sure I want “Rapid Agile” development for something that literally controls nuclear missiles.

A guide from the US DoD on "detecting agile BS" popped up here several months ago, so I think someone there might agree with you on that (edit: nevermind -- looks like they embrace agile but this document is about detecting waterfall or spiral development pretending to be agile) https://media.defense.gov/2018/Oct/09/2002049591/-1/-1/0/DIB...

To be sure, that draft was written by the Defense Innovation Board[1], who are about as far removed from actual cogs in the machine as you can get.

The final release of that paper along with other SWAP study publications can be found here[2].

[1] https://innovation.defense.gov/Members/

[2] https://innovation.defense.gov/software/

Re: The US nuclear forces’ messaging system finally got rid of its floppy disks

#57

So when we upgrade the hardware, how much of it will be sourced from China? Is it even possible to fully secure the supply chain? Introducing any outside code or hardware is a liability. Unless there is a really urgent problem, I think they should just freeze their entire computer platform, that way they can eliminate any chance of any new threats. I can not possibly imagine any cost justification for doing so. I hav…

> So when we upgrade the hardware, how much of it will be sourced from China?

FYSA[1], would it surprise you if that figure was precisely zero?

[1] https://www.dmea.osd.mil/trustedic.html

Re: The US nuclear forces’ messaging system finally got rid of its floppy disks

#58
post #52

In the 80's, I was the project engineer for the Air Force DSP satellite ground communications network upgrade. This system used a 20 MB Bernoulli Box to store the early warning messages. It was replaced in 2005. This was the system used to pass early warning to the Patriot anti-missile (Scud) batteries during the first Gulf War. Internetworking the Air Force system to an Army system was considered revolutionary in 19…

If your team had Link 16 integration requirements, I extend my deepest sympathies.

Re: The US nuclear forces’ messaging system finally got rid of its floppy disks

#59
post #49
post #36

I know of several military systems that still use floppy disks, that comforts me for a few reason: * Their maintenance is well understood - every fault that is likely to happen has happened and has been recovered/repaired from. It's very unlikely there will be new surprised down the road. * Their degradation is well understood - it's been around long enough that parts have failed and have been repaired. * Isn't easil…

This could be a sign that a new generation of technologies are reaching a similar level of reliability.

This could be wishful thinking.

Re: The US nuclear forces’ messaging system finally got rid of its floppy disks

#60
post #5

Long term reliability metrics can only be gathered for technologies that have already been deployed in the long term. That’s why many mission critical applications like this one use “obsolete” technologies.

> That’s why many mission critical applications like this one use “obsolete” technologies.

...or perhaps it's a much more simple risk probability v. consequence severity decision?

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