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San Francisco, Hostage to the Homeless

city-journal.org

31–40 of 42 posts

Re: San Francisco, Hostage to the Homeless

#31

Something annoying about this kind of reporting is that the writer constantly refers to the homeless population as a monolithic group called "the homeless." The writer ascribes all kinds of attitudes and beliefs onto them, ostensibly based on the writer's interactions with homeless people in investigating this story. There's a weird self-fulfilling prophecy going on in which the writer only interacts with homeless pe…

Unfortunately, the situation is so bad in San Francisco that even a very conservative, moralist, and generalizing article such as this happens to make quite valid observations and arguments.

At this point I don't think there's any serious public disagreement that the city's policies of radical tolerance of drug use and refusal to pursue forced treatment of the mentally ill has become too extreme and counter-productive. There are plenty of politicians, perhaps most of them, that would swing the pendulum back. But generations of rhetoric regarding the history of forced institutionalization, War on Drugs, and minority discrimination, has been internalized. Not just the sad truth of it, but the rhetoric, divorced from the reality of that history and thus impenetrable to reassurances of a changed context. So whenever the city tries to change course it's far too easy for political opportunists to inflame passions and stoke cynicism, making the political risk of change intolerable.

For example, Mayor London breed opposed a bond measure to raise more money for homeless housing, drug treatment, etc. She opposed it because as a newly incoming mayor she wanted to the ability to use the prospect of more money as leverage for reform. That is, she supported a bond measure in principle, but not until some policy reforms were in place to insure the money would be more effective. But opportunists and activists outside the political process pushed ahead, which meant all the various departments and political interests knew they had money coming without having to seriously reckon with their manifest ineffectiveness. And the public were willing to just throw more money at the situation--anything to just make it go away--because they've internalized the rhetoric that the homeless and drug use problems are purely structural; they were overly credulous of promises that things would change with just another round of new money.

It's a very unfortunate state of affairs, and in many ways I see similarities to how, on a national scale, generations of conservative rhetoric has been internalized to some non-negligible degree by the entire country, which has in turn resulted in an extreme rightist element effectively being able to drive the national narrative.

EDIT: Removed the "[now ancient]" qualifier on the history of forced institutionalization, in case people thought I meant it to apply to minority discrimination.

Re: San Francisco, Hostage to the Homeless

#32

"If San Francisco wanted to give its homeless addicts their best shot at stability, it would go after the open-air drug trade with every possible tool, including immigration law" "Taxpayer subsidies should go to citizens, not individuals who are defying the rule of law." "The tales veer from one confused and improbable situation to the next, against a backdrop of drug use, petty crime, and chaotic child-rearing. Behi…

You're putting words in her mouth, and you should try living in China or reading more history if you read anything above as remotely resembling fascism. Also as someone who does not do drugs, I consider it a bigger problem when a homeless person who survives off of government programs does drugs than when an otherwise functional adult does drugs, especially given how much likelier the homeless are to be psychotic and…

> I consider it a bigger problem when a homeless person who survives off of government programs does drugs than when an otherwise functional adult does drugs

I agree! But I think the ugliness GP alludes to comes from the fact that this boils down to: the law that people want is essentially selective enforcement weighed against the people who presumably have the least as is (a consequence of their own choices or otherwise).

Alternatively, you can't legislate root causes: you have to legislate against symptoms; the problematic results of drug use. But that seems to be too hard to do too and does seem like a round about way of attacking populations in need.

I think it's a hard question that needs to start with: what rights and options do we want to extend people who for one reason or another find themselves in conflict with "civilized society."

Re: San Francisco, Hostage to the Homeless

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're putting words in her mouth, and you should try living in China or reading more history if you read anything above as remotely resembling fascism. Also as someone who does not do drugs, I consider it a bigger problem when a homeless person who survives off of government programs does drugs than when an otherwise functional adult does drugs, especially given how much likelier the homeless are to be psychotic and…

> I consider it a bigger problem when a homeless person who survives off of government programs does drugs than when an otherwise functional adult does drugs I agree! But I think the ugliness GP alludes to comes from the fact that this boils down to: the law that people want is essentially selective enforcement weighed against the people who presumably have the least as is (a consequence of their own choices or other…

It's stupidly easy to legislate against the results. Enforce drug laws against people shooting up in public. Problem solved.

The fact that the San Francisco public is too brainwashed to do so is a big part of why I would never consider taking a job there, and I can think of no greater karmic justice than the fact that they have to suffer the consequences of their idiotic policies towards homelessness.

Whatever rights "we want to extend people who [...] find themselves in conflict with 'civilized society'" shouldn't include defecating on and leaving discarded, infectious needles strewn over the streets of the most coveted neighborhoods in the United States.

Re: San Francisco, Hostage to the Homeless

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>"You aren't, for instance, going to get a homeless person who doesn't do drugs" what does that even mean (like they only abuse alcohol?)? There are not thousands but 10s of thousands of discarded needles being cleaned up monthly and weekly ( https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2019/09/04/the-city-picks-... ) >> Feels like an inherently biased sort of investigation. this is a weird call out. What is the proposed alter…

> what does that even mean (like they only abuse alcohol?)? Only about 35% of the homeless population has an addiction. Less than half of the homeless population neither has an addiction nor a mental illness. [1] Just because there is lots of substance abuse (and yes, there certainly is), doesn't mean that the average homeless person does drugs. When you talk about the homeless population, you have to include people…

There's ambiguity between the formal classification of homelessness as used by the city and organizations, and other connotations such as the street homeless. People across the spectrum seem to abuse this and similar terminological ambiguity to suit their particular argument or rhetorical point.

There's also the fact that self-reporting regarding things like previous residence, drug use, etc is unreliable. I've always found it odd that some people on HN are so credulous of these numbers even though in other contexts they'd be the first to point out that self-reported data makes bad science.

This doesn't mean the numbers are wrong, just that we should have very large error bars which grow as we make inferences. If we combine ambiguity regarding homelessness with an already substantial number like 35%, and tack on issues like mental illness, it's hardly a stretch to say that drug use and mental illness are the principle problems for the seeming intractability of street homeless reduction.

Re: San Francisco, Hostage to the Homeless

#35
"A 33-year-old woman from Alabama, who now lives in a tent in an industrial area outside downtown"

migration issue, rule of law failure and a healthcare problem.

since there is no expansion of the middle class layer to pay more taxes for the extra cost of new social housing IMHO this is going to progress.

Re: San Francisco, Hostage to the Homeless

#36
post #35

"A 33-year-old woman from Alabama, who now lives in a tent in an industrial area outside downtown" migration issue, rule of law failure and a healthcare problem. since there is no expansion of the middle class layer to pay more taxes for the extra cost of new social housing IMHO this is going to progress.

At an even 90% income tax rate there's not enough money in the city to build new housing for the homeless and financially insecure. It's insane to think this is even possible. (Not that I assume you do.) It's like saying we should buy new cars for the carless, rural population rather than subsidize used car purchases.

But there would be no cheap, used cars to buy if we severely limited the manufacture of new cars. Yet somehow people still believe that building new, market rate[1] housing is not a prerequisite to improving the housing situation in the city. To be sure, it's not sufficient; but it's absolutely necessary.

[1] Thus leveraging the hundreds of trillions of global capital.

Re: San Francisco, Hostage to the Homeless

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>"You aren't, for instance, going to get a homeless person who doesn't do drugs" what does that even mean (like they only abuse alcohol?)? There are not thousands but 10s of thousands of discarded needles being cleaned up monthly and weekly ( https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2019/09/04/the-city-picks-... ) >> Feels like an inherently biased sort of investigation. this is a weird call out. What is the proposed alter…

> what does that even mean (like they only abuse alcohol?)? Only about 35% of the homeless population has an addiction. Less than half of the homeless population neither has an addiction nor a mental illness. [1] Just because there is lots of substance abuse (and yes, there certainly is), doesn't mean that the average homeless person does drugs. When you talk about the homeless population, you have to include people…

I am extremely skeptical of the 35% number.

>>Less than half of the homeless population neither has an addiction nor a mental illness.

Above quote implies close to half. I just find it hard to believe.

If a person is otherwise "functional" (or as you say "like you") I would really want to know more about their situation if their time on the street is longer than one month.

For contrast id like to point out that in the cases of migrant caravans comprised of THOUSANDS (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/10/20/migrant...) of people and families. Caravan migrants are so poor they cant afford a bus/train ticket. As far as i know most of those people do not WALK to the US to sleep on the streets. As far as i know they are able to find housing.

Just to recap people with almost no education/English/money and minimal social network DO NOT endup on the streets of major cities in their thousands.

I make a point of this - because for this problem to get resolved we have to think critically about what the problem actually is.

And to be super clear - we absolutely need a better safety net for people who fell on hard times and could no longer keep their previously expensive home.

But also we need to be clear about the causes of homelessness we see in major US cities.

Re: San Francisco, Hostage to the Homeless

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I consider it a bigger problem when a homeless person who survives off of government programs does drugs than when an otherwise functional adult does drugs I agree! But I think the ugliness GP alludes to comes from the fact that this boils down to: the law that people want is essentially selective enforcement weighed against the people who presumably have the least as is (a consequence of their own choices or other…

It's stupidly easy to legislate against the results. Enforce drug laws against people shooting up in public. Problem solved. The fact that the San Francisco public is too brainwashed to do so is a big part of why I would never consider taking a job there, and I can think of no greater karmic justice than the fact that they have to suffer the consequences of their idiotic policies towards homelessness. Whatever rights…

> The fact that the San Francisco public is too brainwashed ... > why I would never consider taking a job there, > of the most coveted neighborhoods in the United States.

Look, I agree more could and should be done, but hmm... you've convinced me that maybe the system works. Stay where you are bud. It's more their city yours. I can't fathom how you've managed to feel more entitlement over a city you happily feel has been karmicly punished.

Re: San Francisco, Hostage to the Homeless

#40
post #28

> San Francisco’s progressive self-image soon trumped common sense, and in 1996, at the urging of the Coalition on Homelessness, voters turned Jordan out of city hall in favor of former state assembly speaker Willie Brown. Brown had run on a compassion platform, but he soon came to repudiate it, observing with amazement that many of the homeless didn’t actually want to come off the streets. ... When people think of t…

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