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What happens when a city bans cars from its streets?

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Re: What happens when a city bans cars from its streets?

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Self-driving cars are going trigger a new wave of automobile growth, at least in the US. They won't be dangerous, will run clean, be super convenient and unbelievably inexpensive to own and operate. My guess is that you are wrong. At least what comes to driving in cities. As the (current) main problem of cars in cities is not accidents, emissions, lack of convenience or even cost. It is the massive amount of space…

It is the massive amount of space one car takes[1]. That is a legitimate concern, but the kind of photo you linked to that is often used in advocacy is horribly misleading. In reality, if cyclists rode anything like that close together, there would be accidents all the time because no-one would be able to make turns or travel at different speeds. The general advice to drivers here in the UK is that you should allow a…

The photos of the cyclists and cars seem fairly analogous. Both are basically the vehicles sitting in gridlock, so very tightly packed. It's impossible for cars to move at any reasonable speed in that configuration. That said, the bikes photo might not be as crazy as it seems [1].

The advice about giving cyclists space only applies if you yourself are in a car. Cyclists can ride extremely close to other cyclists and remain totally safe. That photo of Copenhagen illustrates the point very clearly. This works if roads are cycle-first, which is a major rarity.

The bus complaint is valid, but not really relevant. Cars are only a problem in high traffic routes with a large need for passenger throughput. Buses on those routes tend to be well utilized. If you are living in a place that doesn't have that quantity of people passing through (more rural areas) then cars are totally fine. They likely shouldn't have used a full bus, and I acknowledge that this sort of photo isn't perfect, but the point they are trying to make is entirely valid.

The argument about uniform traffic speeds is mostly irrelevant for exactly the same reasons I listed above. With clear roads, there is no problem. The issue is that, in busy cities, clear roads are an impossibility, even in cities that were built with automobile traffic as the clear first priority for transportation.

In situations where car traffic is not a problem, it's not a problem! We can leave it alone. Automobiles are, and will remain for the foreseeable future, the only valid option for transit outside of urban areas.

The car free movement is fundamentally about cities (particularly city centers), where cars are inefficient, are expensive, are dangerous, use up in inordinate amount of space, and are a major contributor to pollution (which is a particularly large problem in such areas). In those sort of situations, there is simply a better way.

[1] https://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2015/10/copenhage...

Re: What happens when a city bans cars from its streets?

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is the massive amount of space one car takes[1]. That is a legitimate concern, but the kind of photo you linked to that is often used in advocacy is horribly misleading. In reality, if cyclists rode anything like that close together, there would be accidents all the time because no-one would be able to make turns or travel at different speeds. The general advice to drivers here in the UK is that you should allow a…

Cyclists car ride very closely together quite safely, as all kinds of mass rides show. Relative speeds are close to zero, and cyclists generally have much better spatial awareness than cars.

Cyclists car ride very closely together quite safely, as all kinds of mass rides show.

That is true to some extent with experienced cyclists following much the same route (which is the situation for most mass rides).

It is not true at all with a diverse variety of cyclist skill and experience while everyone is trying to get to different places.

cyclists generally have much better spatial awareness than cars.

Citation very much needed. As someone who has lived in and around a heavily cycling-friendly city for a very long time, I see little evidence to support this. Indeed, I can't remember the last time a motor vehicle randomly pulled out into the road right in front of me or swerved across my normal driving line without warning causing me to take avoiding action, while I'd measure instances of cyclists doing this sort of thing in units of infractions-per-week even infractions-per-day.

Re: What happens when a city bans cars from its streets?

#233
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article mention cities, you are talking about suburbs. Nobody wants to remove cars from the suburbs because it is the backbone of it. Remove the cars => no more suburbs.

Yes, but less auto dependence means less suburbs right? "Sprawl" is criticized a lot. A transit oriented suburb would be like Japan. The houses would be less big, there would be less space to suspend the normal rules of society around things like nudity, and so on. I get why cities are great, but suburb living leads to a very different — and for me vastly better — quality of life.

Older cities in the northeast US have a lot of transit friendly areas where residents still own a car. You just need to get to your town center to access the public transit system. That can be accomplished by driving if needed. It can also still be less sprawling that way, since the town centers function as transit hubs.

It's not even done particularly well in the NE US, and it still works fairly well compared to the situation in most places.

I don't think improving transit options in cities and maintaining a car-oriented existence in the suburbs are at odds with one another.

Re: What happens when a city bans cars from its streets?

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is the massive amount of space one car takes[1]. That is a legitimate concern, but the kind of photo you linked to that is often used in advocacy is horribly misleading. In reality, if cyclists rode anything like that close together, there would be accidents all the time because no-one would be able to make turns or travel at different speeds. The general advice to drivers here in the UK is that you should allow a…

1. It seems to me that all the photos are of roughly "maximum congestion" of each vehicle type. So the cars are pictured as if they're stopped at a light or in heavy traffic, while if they we traveling at 50mph I'd hope for much, much more following distance. So yes, the bikes would have somewhat more distance between them if they were moving, but that seems fair to me, as the cars would too. 2. I don't want cars to…

So yes, the bikes would have somewhat more distance between them if they were moving, but that seems fair to me, as the cars would too.

Right. But proportionately, that distance becomes much greater than the size of the vehicles themselves very quickly as speed increases, which makes the comparison based on vehicle size that we see in the photo almost entirely irrelevant in practice.

Re: What happens when a city bans cars from its streets?

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is the massive amount of space one car takes[1]. That is a legitimate concern, but the kind of photo you linked to that is often used in advocacy is horribly misleading. In reality, if cyclists rode anything like that close together, there would be accidents all the time because no-one would be able to make turns or travel at different speeds. The general advice to drivers here in the UK is that you should allow a…

The photos of the cyclists and cars seem fairly analogous. Both are basically the vehicles sitting in gridlock, so very tightly packed. It's impossible for cars to move at any reasonable speed in that configuration. That said, the bikes photo might not be as crazy as it seems [1]. The advice about giving cyclists space only applies if you yourself are in a car. Cyclists can ride extremely close to other cyclists and…

Cyclists can ride extremely close to other cyclists and remain totally safe.

No, they can't. The risk of a careless cyclist swerving across the path of another cyclist is little different to the risk of a careless cyclist swerving across the path of a motor vehicle, except that in the first case the innocent party is much more likely to be seriously hurt. The point of the official guidance to allow as much space when passing a cycle as when passing a car is because the cycle is more likely to be unstable, not because the overtaking car is.

Cars are only a problem in high traffic routes with a large need for passenger throughput. Buses on those routes tend to be well utilized.

Several decades of experience living in my current area suggest otherwise. For example, one significant problem is asymmetry: if you go one way on a journey by one mode of transport, you may well need to make a return trip later using the same mode of transport, but just because it's busy and there's a frequent and well-utilised bus service in one case, that is no guarantee of the same (or indeed any bus service at all) for the return trip. This can simultaneously result in both hugely wasteful journeys by almost-empty buses in some cases and impossible journeys due to inadequate bus service provision in others.

If you are living in a place that doesn't have that quantity of people passing through (more rural areas) then cars are totally fine.

But people living in rural areas often travel into or via nearby towns and cities. Indeed, it's entirely possible for the majority of congestion on the roads of a town or city to come from this source. Unless you provide adequate public transport alternatives for not just those travelling relatively short distances within that town or city but also those travelling into and/or out of the central area, you don't really offer a practical alternative to car journeys.

Likewise, people living in big cities need to travel outside the city sometimes. Unless there's reasonable public transport for their entire journey, including reaching any long-distance transport in their home city and getting around wherever they are visiting, again you're back to needing an alternative that can do the whole job, and if that means a car then you're driving it within your home city as well.

The issue is that, in busy cities, clear roads are an impossibility, even in cities that were built with automobile traffic as the clear first priority for transportation.

Again, that is not necessarily true. When you reach critical mass, it becomes true, but there is often a wide band with some degree of congestion but not approaching gridlock. Within that band, it is entirely possible for journeys to be significantly disrupted and therefore lengthened by the effects I mentioned. We see it almost every day in the city closest to me, for as much as an hour or two either side of peak periods, or during lesser peaks like weekend shopping or before and after some local event with a lot of visitors.

The car free movement is fundamentally about cities (particularly city centers), where cars are inefficient, are expensive, are dangerous, use up in inordinate amount of space, and are a major contributor to pollution (which is a particularly large problem in such areas). In those sort of situations, there is simply a better way.

Yes, mass transport is effective in scenarios where there is sufficient demand to make it worthwhile, and for local journeys within dense populations at peak times that may well be the case. I don't think anyone seriously disputes this.

The problem I have with a lot of the anti-car advocacy is that it treats transport networks as some sort of boolean system, either "congested" or "not congested", but in reality the degree of congestion tends to follow a much smoother curve with peaks at various times throughout the day. If you draw a straight horizontal line, across a chart of congestion against time of day, at the level where critical mass is reached and gridlock is inevitable, in many places there will be a lot of the time when the curve is below that line. At those times, alternative modes of transport may be less attractive in terms of potentially relevant criteria like efficiency, reliability/availability and environmental friendliness.

Re: What happens when a city bans cars from its streets?

#236
post #211
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Helicopters, hovercrafts and yachts also have this appeal. Nobody's saying cars will go away, just that the entirety of human infrastructure might not be constructed around them.

> Helicopters, hovercrafts and yachts also have this appeal. Nobody's saying cars will go away, just that the entirety of human infrastructure might not be constructed around them. That's crazy overstatement. Railways are not built for cars. Water pipes are not built for cars. Airports are not built for cars. Power plants and transformers and power lines are not built for cars. Dams are not built for cars. Ports are…

That's obviously not the point being made, but it's funny how you've still managed to name things that in the West are at least built around the needs of cars in most cases.

How many dams have helipads? Not many, how many can be driven over? That railway bridge? Sized to allow car traffic underneath.

Many airports have about as much car parking (or more) as runways measured by footprint, same for many power plants.

Houses either have a garage or can't be legally built without parking in many jurisdictions, how many of those require helipads?

Re: What happens when a city bans cars from its streets?

#237
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but less auto dependence means less suburbs right? "Sprawl" is criticized a lot. A transit oriented suburb would be like Japan. The houses would be less big, there would be less space to suspend the normal rules of society around things like nudity, and so on. I get why cities are great, but suburb living leads to a very different — and for me vastly better — quality of life.

Older cities in the northeast US have a lot of transit friendly areas where residents still own a car. You just need to get to your town center to access the public transit system. That can be accomplished by driving if needed. It can also still be less sprawling that way, since the town centers function as transit hubs. It's not even done particularly well in the NE US, and it still works fairly well compared to the…

But the space next to a transit center is more valuable, so why would there be parking there and not apartments?

In practice the answer seems to be either (a) be subsidized and fill up early, as with BART today, or (b) be priced at market rate, so with BART people would have to pay $18/day for parking.

Re: What happens when a city bans cars from its streets?

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. It seems to me that all the photos are of roughly "maximum congestion" of each vehicle type. So the cars are pictured as if they're stopped at a light or in heavy traffic, while if they we traveling at 50mph I'd hope for much, much more following distance. So yes, the bikes would have somewhat more distance between them if they were moving, but that seems fair to me, as the cars would too. 2. I don't want cars to…

So yes, the bikes would have somewhat more distance between them if they were moving, but that seems fair to me, as the cars would too. Right. But proportionately, that distance becomes much greater than the size of the vehicles themselves very quickly as speed increases, which makes the comparison based on vehicle size that we see in the photo almost entirely irrelevant in practice.

Your claim:

> a bike plus adequate space around it is only a bit smaller than a car with adequate space around it.

Here is an example photo from a recent organized bike ride in my city:

https://images.app.goo.gl/S1Nh8d7zqfSEzqmH7

Here is another:

https://images.app.goo.gl/6hh7NAMtEFPZZyKA9

It's quite hard for me to square these images (not to mention my own experiences riding bikes) with your assertion.

Re: What happens when a city bans cars from its streets?

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So yes, the bikes would have somewhat more distance between them if they were moving, but that seems fair to me, as the cars would too. Right. But proportionately, that distance becomes much greater than the size of the vehicles themselves very quickly as speed increases, which makes the comparison based on vehicle size that we see in the photo almost entirely irrelevant in practice.

Your claim: > a bike plus adequate space around it is only a bit smaller than a car with adequate space around it. Here is an example photo from a recent organized bike ride in my city: https://images.app.goo.gl/S1Nh8d7zqfSEzqmH7 Here is another: https://images.app.goo.gl/6hh7NAMtEFPZZyKA9 It's quite hard for me to square these images (not to mention my own experiences riding bikes) with your assertion.

But everyday cycling around a city doesn't look anything like an organised mass bike ride. Not everyone is an experienced cyclist. There isn't a predetermined route and there are no marshals to direct the riders around it. Different riders will be going in all sorts of different directions. The roads probably won't be cleared of other traffic. Junctions and other traffic controls will be operating normally.

Re: What happens when a city bans cars from its streets?

#240
post #3

I'm so happy to see this idea starting to get mainstream attention. I predict that in 50-100 years we'll look back on the age of the automobile as one of the biggest mistakes in urban planning. Automobiles are dangerous, kill thousands of people every year, contribute significantly to pollution, and cause health problems by discouraging physical activity. They're expensive, inefficient, and cause more harm than good…

> replaced with green space full of trees, flowers, children playing, and usable public space.

Perhaps a few frolicking unicorns as well

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