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Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests enter my home

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Re: Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests enter my home

#461

Post by godelski »

sailfast wrote: post #420
eslaught wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but what on this list actually requires an internet connection? I guess the integration with your power company. But aside from that? You could put a local AI model into the Nest, and it shouldn't need to talk to the internet at all. It can keep the data locally, and be programmed to draw inferences without help from the mothership. For some reason we've decided it's ok to gratuitously connect everything to the i…

How much would a localized AI cost to implement, and would you pay it for a thermostat? As a result, you're lowering your one-time capital cost by connecting to the internet instead, perhaps? I like that I can check on the house from my phone if one travels for multiple weeks at a time. I also like warming up the house before I get home late in the evening. Granted, I've now got a VPN / firewall setup that would do t…

> How much would a localized AI cost to implement

Not much, because you're probably doing regression and I doubt this tasks needs neural nets. Well, it is definitely solvable without NNs at the very least.

Re: Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests enter my home

#462

Post by godelski »

chenning wrote: post #421
eslaught wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but what on this list actually requires an internet connection? I guess the integration with your power company. But aside from that? You could put a local AI model into the Nest, and it shouldn't need to talk to the internet at all. It can keep the data locally, and be programmed to draw inferences without help from the mothership. For some reason we've decided it's ok to gratuitously connect everything to the i…

Don't you need data aggregation to build the model though? I think that's part of the problem, but I could be wrong.

No. You could do this with any model that has feedback built in. I don't think you'd even need something as complicated as Q-learning but any type of reinforcement "learning" method would work. You're basically teaching a PID that has a clock.

Re: Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests enter my home

#463

Post by 0xffff2 »

greggman2 wrote: post #142
saluki wrote: post #115

I was a huge Google Fan but this is becoming lunacy. I understood trading some data and privacy for great search results, maps and free quality email. But people willingly bringing always on listening devices in to their homes (beyond what smartphones are already capable of) I just can't comprehend it. Why would people voluntarily do this in exchange for being able to ask for weather, play a playlist, add a todo and…

I hate not having privacy but I don't understand singling Google out here. Siri is listening (both on phones and on Apple' homepod), Alexa is listening, Cortana is listening, ... I actually am less worried about those (since I turn them off) than I do about Netflix/Amazon knowing every movie I watch. Amazon knowing every product I order. My Credit Card and Bank company knowing every business I transact with. My Mac a…

>Siri is listening (both on phones and on Apple' homepod), Alexa is listening, Cortana is listening, ...

I've disabled Siri and Cortana to the best of my ability (and I don't own any Amazon devices with a microphone). Of course I can't actually be sure that that means that they're really not listening, but it's absurd to imply that just because one owns a smart phone they must give up all hope of privacy.

Re: Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests enter my home

#464

Post by faceblob2 »

nothrabannosir wrote: post #445
Clubber wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure selling data to the NSA, federal, state and local governments is very lucrative to these companies and is a primary revenue stream.

A primary revenue stream? For a public company, which has to publish its financials yet somehow keep this hidden? This sounds far fetched, to be honest.

Governments and corporations are filled with deceitful, self-serving, corrupt people. If there is a monetary interest, the transaction will take place. If that has to happen under the radar, it will. The agencies will excuse their actions by citing "defense". It is in the interest of National Security, therefore, that the data is handed/sold to the government, and the mechanism of this transfer is classified owing to National Security interests. Or maybe it's easier than that. Maybe Google is just a government agency. An Alphabet agency.

Re: Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests enter my home

#465

Post by rtkwe »

eslaught wrote: post #335
mey wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I value privacy, my nest thermostat is the only IoT device in my house that talks to the internet or can be accessed remotely without a VPN. What I find most valuable is it programs itself. Am I cold? Turn it up a bit, hot? Turn it down a bit. Suddenly I have stopped having to adjust it at all. Even as life has changed. It has some nice other features, such as preheating/cooling, telling me how long it will take to g…

Ok, but what on this list actually requires an internet connection? I guess the integration with your power company. But aside from that? You could put a local AI model into the Nest, and it shouldn't need to talk to the internet at all. It can keep the data locally, and be programmed to draw inferences without help from the mothership. For some reason we've decided it's ok to gratuitously connect everything to the i…

You can control it from anywhere so if you're coming home earlier than normal or know you need to pre-cool the house because you're having a party later you can do it from your phone. Or just being able to control it from anywhere in the house, this can be done with X10 or something but that requires additional hardware to bridge between the X10 network and the internet. Most IoT devices are similar and use wifi and a central server because it's the most convenient option for configuration, with both sides hitting a central API you don't have to worry about ensuring clients discover all the devices on the home network and it's then trivial to allow control from outside the home.

Re: Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests enter my home

#466

Post by kelnos »

heavyset_go wrote: post #324
oppositelock wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does having a Nest thermostat get you? I'm a tech dude, I build modern software, but I live in a dumb, old fashioned house. My programmable Honeywell thermostat, which has no internet connection, does a perfectly fine job of keeping my home the right temperature. My door locks use a key, and keys have great battery life, and my smoke detectors beep instead of speaking to me. What am I missing by not having inter…

> What does having a Nest thermostat get you? Nothing that a programmable thermostat plus a Home Assistant instance won't get you.

I run OpenHAB at home (and have tried HA), but setting all this up is not in the wheelhouse of the majority of people. Doing the in-home setup is difficult enough, but safely exposing it to the internet is not something I'd ever ask a non-technical person to do.

Meanwhile, you just swap your old thermostat with the Nest, tell it how to get to your wifi, install an app on your phone, and you're done.

Re: Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests enter my home

#467

Post by rtkwe »

pmlnr wrote: post #437
mikepurvis wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, most of that doesn't require the internet— it would be perfectly possible to build a simple learning thermostat that was offline, or perhaps was only periodically online (eg, dumping a compact data log while it's connected to your laptop for its yearly firmware update). I feel the same way about voice assistants. Recognition can be done locally— playing your playlists or turning the lights on and off shou…

Eons ago Nokia phones were able to learn "voice commands" tied to certain numbers. This was in the dumbphone era.

My limited interaction with those was that they were pretty universally terrible and would not be acceptable today (and were bad enough to be annoying then even).

Re: Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests enter my home

#468

Post by godelski »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #443
sterlind wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In TNG they ask the computer for someone's location every other episode, usually without hesitation. Didn't go so well for Barclay, when they walked into his cringy holodeck fantasy program.

They do, but they never abuse this capability.

I'd disagree with this. Frequently they look through peoples records. Whenever someone dies it is the first thing they do. They also on one hand talk about holo decks being a private space but how often do we see them walking in on peoples' sims. You could totally just shut down the sim from the outside if the person inside is not responding and that would more readily respect that person's privacy (but isn't good for entertainment nor shows that Star Fleet is also composed of "humans").

Re: Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests enter my home

#469

Post by Volundr »

ChristianBundy wrote: post #353
xnyan wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Posted elsewhere, but my A/C had a small leak and was slowly loosing efficiency. At peak heat it could not keep up, but I had no way of knowing that at work. My $99 Emerson Sensi messaged me that the cooling was not keeping up and there was a problem. I could turn off the unit remotely to prevent stress on the compressor and fixed the small leak well before I would have known without a internet enabled thermostat. I…

That doesn't answer the question: why does that require internet access?

How else did you expect it to message him? Or let him turn it off remotely? Sure, could put a SIM in it and do an SMS that way, but then you have to pay for service for your thermostat, rather than just using the WIFI you already have.

Re: Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests enter my home

#470

Post by ornitorrincos »

api wrote: post #297
shadowgovt wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the short run, it gives the company three direct benefits for making the technology work (besides the "They can advertise at you better" one that people like to drumbeat on). 1) Context is nearly invisible, and is constructed from dozens to hundreds of data points. Holding state on the user (not just from direct interaction with the agent, but from other services the agent can be aware of) makes a lot more context…

All of these are addressable engineering challenges if privacy were a priority. It's just that privacy is not a priority. (1) is not that hard, just subscribe to feeds or query cloud services from the device. (2) is harder but could be done by treating the devices as a cluster or sending data up only when it can't be easily recognized and storing it only long enough to be useful in training (and storing it anonymousl…

isn't that what in this sitee is the maligned GDPR does?
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