What happens when a city bans cars from its streets? • Hacker News Board

Re: What happens when a city bans cars from its streets?

#191

Post by bb123 » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 8:18 AM UTC

317070 wrote: post #186

bb123 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But your comment glosses over the part about rural people though. The reason these people love them is because there is no alternative and I don't really see how we can change that. Mass transit doesn't make sense in rural areas.

But (electric) bikes do? Yeah, you will probably own a car living in a rural area, but where I was from, when you went to the city you either switched modes (car+walk/scoot) or cycled to the city. The group of people who really has no alternative is actually quite small. And over here, there is a small but growing opinion that those people maybe should live in the city in the first place? Right now they are making ci…

Totally agree cars are not the right mode of transport for cities. I'm a big fan of park and ride solutions for this - drive to the outskirts, dump the car and ride the train/bus in. I don't think it is really fair however to ask people who live in rural areas to move to cities. In general rural areas are more deprived so I would hazard a guess that many of them couldn't afford to live in the city even if they wanted to. Plus we do need people in rural areas - agriculture and tourism are both important industries.

Re: What happens when a city bans cars from its streets?

#192

Post by Razengan » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 8:26 AM UTC

mamon wrote: post #185

benj111 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The most obvious: the elderly and people with disabilities" Interesting you pick that as your first point, as this is an argument for the opposite. The 3 groups of people that can't drive, are these 2 and kids.

They can't drive by themselves, but can be driven in a car by friend or family, who will take them exactly to their final destination. Public transportation requires them to walk significant distance, climb stairs, etc, which is not nearly as convenient. Of course taxis are the alternative, but they are quite expensive, and taxi driver might not be as helpful and forgiving for their disabilities as a family member wo…

Yep, taxi drivers are strangers, which is not desirable for people who need to be chaperoned, and in worse cases it puts those passengers at a risk of being taken advantage of (like being charged an unnecessarily higher fare, or not getting their forgotten belongings back.)

Re: What happens when a city bans cars from its streets?

#193

Post by jakecopp » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 8:27 AM UTC

Razengan wrote: post #167

brenden2 wrote: post #3

I'm so happy to see this idea starting to get mainstream attention. I predict that in 50-100 years we'll look back on the age of the automobile as one of the biggest mistakes in urban planning. Automobiles are dangerous, kill thousands of people every year, contribute significantly to pollution, and cause health problems by discouraging physical activity. They're expensive, inefficient, and cause more harm than good…

> My dream is that one day most streets ... will be closed to car traffic and replaced with green space full of trees, flowers, children playing, and usable public space. While I share that dream, and rarely ever need a car myself, I cannot currently imagine a better alternative to having a personal car in your home for the following situations: • The most obvious: People who need to be chaperoned: children, the elde…

- Children love to ride bikes when it is safe to do so, from personal experience.

- If you keep some (inverse of most) streets open to a small amount of traffic (Like Barcelona's superblocks [1]), the elderly and those with disabilities are still mobile.

- Why is privacy needed when travelling? Do you require a private enclosure around you when you are walking? I've met many interesting people from all walks of life while cycling and on public transport that I wouldn't have had the chance to meet otherwise, just like I meet people when on foot. Car free streets provide many more interesting street restaurants/businesses for such activities you describe.

- Travelling with the whole family on a train or cycling is pretty good. For example, in Sydney the seats of most of our trains flip so you can have up to 6 people facing each other.

Though I am excited for self driving cars because we won't need so much parking!

[1]: https://theconversation.com/superblocks-are-transforming-bar...

Re: What happens when a city bans cars from its streets?

#194

Post by benj111 » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 8:28 AM UTC

Razengan wrote: post #181

benj111 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The most obvious: the elderly and people with disabilities" Interesting you pick that as your first point, as this is an argument for the opposite. The 3 groups of people that can't drive, are these 2 and kids.

> The 3 groups of people that can't drive, are these 2 and kids. Ah sorry, I should have explicitly stated that they need others to drive them around. Taxis and public transport are usually not convenient for them.

Id argue against public transport not being convenient older people, certainly compared to other groups. I can see how public transport is more of a challenge for certain disabled groups. I can't see why taxis couldn't fill that role here though???

Re: What happens when a city bans cars from its streets?

#195

Post by Razengan » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 8:29 AM UTC

jakecopp wrote: post #193

Razengan wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My dream is that one day most streets ... will be closed to car traffic and replaced with green space full of trees, flowers, children playing, and usable public space. While I share that dream, and rarely ever need a car myself, I cannot currently imagine a better alternative to having a personal car in your home for the following situations: • The most obvious: People who need to be chaperoned: children, the elde…

- Children love to ride bikes when it is safe to do so, from personal experience. - If you keep some (inverse of most) streets open to a small amount of traffic (Like Barcelona's superblocks [1]), the elderly and those with disabilities are still mobile. - Why is privacy needed when travelling? Do you require a private enclosure around you when you are walking? I've met many interesting people from all walks of life…

You are assuming all cultures/societies to be the same.

Re: What happens when a city bans cars from its streets?

#196

Post by jakecopp » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 8:30 AM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #177

rb808 wrote: post #40

It used to be only wealthy people could afford cars and to live in the suburbs. Now cities are so expensive its poor people who live in the suburbs a long way from train stations and drive in. Makes sense to ban cars now and complete the cycle.

Despite the fact I despise cars I can't help feeling poor people are going to get shafted in this transition.

Cars are expensive. Cars are extremely expensive to park in the city.

I don't think anyone is arguing to ban cars in outer suburbs without sufficient buses to the local station.

I imagine most inner city drivers are quite wealthy if they can afford parking there.

Re: What happens when a city bans cars from its streets?

#197

Post by jakecopp » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 8:44 AM UTC

Razengan wrote: post #195

jakecopp wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Children love to ride bikes when it is safe to do so, from personal experience. - If you keep some (inverse of most) streets open to a small amount of traffic (Like Barcelona's superblocks [1]), the elderly and those with disabilities are still mobile. - Why is privacy needed when travelling? Do you require a private enclosure around you when you are walking? I've met many interesting people from all walks of life…

You are assuming all cultures/societies to be the same.

Could you elaborate which points would differ between cultures?

If one is choosing to live in a city, they are willing to be surrounded by other people in their daily life.

I don't think anyone is advocating banning/reducing cars in suburbia.

Re: What happens when a city bans cars from its streets?

#198

Post by Symbiote » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 8:45 AM UTC

greglindahl wrote: post #149

jandrese wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idyllic dream of vendors lugging their wares through the subway and city streets every day... When construction companies hire armies of people to walk individual I-beams through the city for every project... Where I get to haul my garbage a dozen blocks to the nearest accessible trash pickup location... In the end you still need roads. You don't get to convert all of that space into a park even if you ban cars.

Literally no city ever banned I-beam delivery with a truck, but sure, I guess we can discuss hypotheticals. Ditto for your garbage hysteria.

Actually, where it can work, London may restrict a new development to having a certain proportion of its materials delivered by rail or water.

This might require restoring or even constructing a jetty or small siding. Any cost is balanced against the disruption and danger of taking many large vehicles through residential areas.

Re: What happens when a city bans cars from its streets?

#199

Post by garretraziel » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 8:58 AM UTC

317070 wrote: post #186

bb123 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But your comment glosses over the part about rural people though. The reason these people love them is because there is no alternative and I don't really see how we can change that. Mass transit doesn't make sense in rural areas.

But (electric) bikes do? Yeah, you will probably own a car living in a rural area, but where I was from, when you went to the city you either switched modes (car+walk/scoot) or cycled to the city. The group of people who really has no alternative is actually quite small. And over here, there is a small but growing opinion that those people maybe should live in the city in the first place? Right now they are making ci…

> And over here, there is a small but growing opinion that those people maybe should live in the city in the first place?

I live in central Europe and there is actually quite opposite debate: people are moving to cities in large quantities, so rural areas are becoming emptier and poorer every day. Not everyone can and should live in a big city.

Re: What happens when a city bans cars from its streets?

#200

Post by isostatic » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 9:12 AM UTC

jakecopp wrote: post #190

isostatic wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Underground isn't an infinite space. Power, Sewers, basements, vaults, foundations, and existing tunnels. In London, building a new tunnel for crossrail involved threading a TBM through a gap with 80cm clearance (that's less than 2 cubits). The deeper you go, the wider the problems above, the more existing infrastrucutre is effected, not to mention the issues of how to return to the surface. Build decking over all th…

Are there any examples of this "decking" model that have worked? What about all the businesses that occupied the old ground floor? This multi layered fantasy seems to have been around since GM's world fair exhibit in 1939 at least [1], but I haven't seen it work. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurama_(New_York_World%27s_F...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Underground