Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index

#201

Post by nrp » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 5:27 AM UTC

zallarak wrote: post #181

Clarifications (this website perpetuates some common misconceptions): - A single bitcoin "transaction" can actually have thousands of inputs and thousands of outputs. So energy "per transaction" or "transactions per second" is not analogous to a typical monetary transaction. - Bitcoin does not compete with literal credit card transactions (although some use it like that today). I'd compare Bitcoin on-chain transactio…

The linked website attempts to quantify the impact with some stated assumptions. You’ve stated some alternative assumptions, but haven’t quantified the conclusions to determine if they hold.

I’ve been long on Bitcoin, but I am exiting my position over concerns about the environment impact. I don’t think it’s plausible that a proof-of-work based blockchain can be anywhere near as efficient as centralized ledgers are. If any of the proof-of-stake based solutions ever gain traction, maybe I’ll participate in those.

Re: Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index

#202

Post by AtlasBarfed » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 5:29 AM UTC

Cannot the bitcoin developers put in a massive difficulty jump at this point? Just make mining useless.

It won't solve the transaction cost, but I thought sharding was supposed to help that, although I never bothered to learn about lightning network.

Re: Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index

#203

Post by sschueller » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 5:38 AM UTC

blueprint wrote: post #187

zallarak wrote: post #181

Clarifications (this website perpetuates some common misconceptions): - A single bitcoin "transaction" can actually have thousands of inputs and thousands of outputs. So energy "per transaction" or "transactions per second" is not analogous to a typical monetary transaction. - Bitcoin does not compete with literal credit card transactions (although some use it like that today). I'd compare Bitcoin on-chain transactio…

Don't know why you were downvoted. Excellent comment.

Because many believe that Satoshi's vision was to do quick on chain transactions and be used like cash not like gold.

Re: Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index

#204

Post by arcticbull » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 5:42 AM UTC

foepys wrote: post #199

me551ah wrote: post #193

The most powerful supercomputer in the world reaches 143 petaflops, bitcoin network in comparison reaches 80704290.84 Petaflops. Granted that a majority of this computing power is in the form of custom ASIC's, but the figure is really staggering. And all of the 80704290.84 Petaflops, consume 73.12 TWh to repeatedly calculate SHA256 ! What could be the world's most powerful network does absolutely nothing but crunch h…

That's like saying a water bottle factory has only an output of N water bottles per day while the Three Gorges Dam can output N million liters of water a day with the difference that the Three Gorges Dam actually produces something useful, electricity, while doing so. Just because it's a higher number, it doesn't mean it's equally useful.

It's more like instead of using the Three Gorges Dam to generate power you use the giant flow of water to fill 7 water bottles per second and divert the rest to dry up in a nearby salt flat, citing the renewability of the solution.

Re: Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index

#205

Post by conception » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 5:44 AM UTC

lukev wrote: post #132

The energy consumption of Bitcoin isn't new news. What continues to disappoint me, however, is how many people immediately jump to its defense with arguments based on the value it provides, as if that offset its cost. What gets neglected is that the Bitcoin algorithm is inherently wasteful . By its very design, it results in an insane amount of duplicated, pointless computation. The question isn't whether something l…

The other side is that people who mine bitcoin have to have basically “free” energy - margins are too tight. So while it’s wasteful, people aren’t burning coal or gas to produce bitcoin in the big bitcoin farms. Hydro and geothermal rule.

Re: Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index

#206

Post by kbody » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 5:46 AM UTC

Quite arguable numbers that seem to be used to drive traffic to this site rather than do a proper scientific report like done by the University of Cambridge https://cbeci.org/

The CO2 emissions heavily depend on the actual use of renewable which nobody can be sure about. In some cases like bitcoin mining using fuel that would otherwise cause CO2 emissions, you actual have a net gain. (See companies like https://www.upstreamdata.ca/)

So even by those arguable arguable CO2 emissions it's actually less than 0.1% of the world's total.

I wish people that have knee-jerk reactions about this, actual think about the big picture and what actually causes high CO2 emissions and offer way fewer benefits than censorship-resistant money.

The luxury fashion industry for example for a long time has had a big negative effect, from drying up whole lakes, to child labor to effectively destroying villages for what... anyhow.

Re: Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index

#207

Post by arcticbull » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 5:47 AM UTC

sodafountan wrote: post #184

puranjay wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't even know what problem Bitcoin is solving anymore. I haven't seen a single website accepting Bitcoin as a payment in the last whole year.

It's solving a much much bigger problem than electronic payments (which was never really a problem in the first place unless you're overly concerned about privacy). We have a major problem with inflation in this world, you can't just put your money somewhere and have it retain its value anymore and it hasn't been like that for years, we're forced to play the stock market game which just consolidates power to big corp…

> We have a major problem with inflation in this world, you can't just put your money somewhere and have it retain its value anymore and it hasn't been like that for years, we're forced to play the stock market game which just consolidates power to big corporations and leaves a lot of people all over the world left behind...

The Bank of Canada found that a Bitcoin based economy would have the same amount of drag as a 48% rate of inflation [1].

A 2% rate of inflation is trivial in the near term, and in the long term encourages productive allocation of capital. Inflation literally only matters to people sitting on cash -- and that's the point! If you invest it in anything inflation stops mattering and the constant-dollar return starts to matter.

[1] https://www.bankofcanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/swp20...

Re: Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index

#208

Post by newguy1234 » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 5:47 AM UTC

Iv wrote: post #165

lukev wrote: post #132

The energy consumption of Bitcoin isn't new news. What continues to disappoint me, however, is how many people immediately jump to its defense with arguments based on the value it provides, as if that offset its cost. What gets neglected is that the Bitcoin algorithm is inherently wasteful . By its very design, it results in an insane amount of duplicated, pointless computation. The question isn't whether something l…

I am really surprised that Bitcoin (or cryptocurrencies in general) hasn't solved its energy use yet and is still legal. I thought the world would switch to proof-of-stake coins and gradually make bitcoins harder to use.

Bitcoin is pure free market. People keep it because of its history - same as how people buy gold coins.

Re: Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index

#209

Post by newguy1234 » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 5:49 AM UTC

jeremyw wrote: post #127

The contrarian take on Bitcoin and carbon is that Bitcoin chases the cheapest energy, and solar is quickly becoming the cheapest source. In some areas of the world it already is (various subsidized infra in China). See Ramez Naam (co-chair for energy and the environment at Singularity University) for more on this friendliness to proof-of-work. This is a good intro: https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2019/09…

The problem is bitcoin needs baseload power, not variable because the mining equipment is expensive. This is why bigger mining farms are located near large hydropower areas. BTC miners run their equipment 24/7/365.

Re: Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index

#210

Post by newguy1234 » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 5:51 AM UTC

y3k wrote: post #19

One of the main reasons why I dropped BTC. "Getting rich" at cost of the environment (extremely high resource consumption)? No thanks, I'd rather leave that world for future generations.

Same here but I left because of the high transaction costs and low anonymity. I prefer privacy coins. Only problem is not many people use the smaller market cap coins for buying/selling stuff.