Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index

#181

Post by zallarak » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 4:10 AM UTC

Clarifications (this website perpetuates some common misconceptions):

- A single bitcoin "transaction" can actually have thousands of inputs and thousands of outputs. So energy "per transaction" or "transactions per second" is not analogous to a typical monetary transaction.

- Bitcoin does not compete with literal credit card transactions (although some use it like that today). I'd compare Bitcoin on-chain transactions with how nation-states settle their central-bank ledgers with gold. Gold is the best comparison to Bitcoin because trading in hard gold is "final". Credit card transactions happen on a higher level in the financial stack. As does cash. As do bank transfers. All of these bubble down into interbank transfers that eventually settle on the base layer of central banks. So compared to shipping and securing gold, Bitcoin is quite cheap!

- Adding to the above point; if Bitcoin succeeds in beind "adopted", it would not mean we no longer use credit cards. Credit cards would just port their underlying mechanism on top of Bitcoin instead of fiat moneys.

Re: Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index

#182

Post by _7fvc » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 4:30 AM UTC

Bitcoin has grown a complex mining ecosystem that is pretty difficult to understand. Bitcoin has high level of energy consumption because of its demand. If demand goes down, energy consumption will go down. From what I've seen in the market, Bitcoin works the best.

Many coins attempt to tweak this Proof of Work model. The result is not wasted energy but wasted human effort. What we need is to go back and explore Bitcoin Proof of Work model. It's works and simplest to configure.

I create Bitflate, a Bitcoin fork with constant inflation. I get to see a small-scale, simpler version of Bitcoin energy consumption. Currently, it costs me about $3/day to mine coins and verify transactions. I get about 12-14 TH/s. That is cheap for running a digital ledger system. It's cheaper than renting any server on AWS. I imagine, in the future, businesses can run private permissioned digital ledger system to verify their own transactions. A Proof of Work system like Bitcoin is not wasteful.

Re: Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index

#183

Post by xur17 » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 4:38 AM UTC

puranjay wrote: post #160

lukev wrote: post #132

The energy consumption of Bitcoin isn't new news. What continues to disappoint me, however, is how many people immediately jump to its defense with arguments based on the value it provides, as if that offset its cost. What gets neglected is that the Bitcoin algorithm is inherently wasteful . By its very design, it results in an insane amount of duplicated, pointless computation. The question isn't whether something l…

I don't even know what problem Bitcoin is solving anymore. I haven't seen a single website accepting Bitcoin as a payment in the last whole year.

I regularly use it to pay for gift cards on cardcash for an additional 2% discount. It makes a lot of sense for sites selling items highly prone to fraud or with thin margins.

Re: Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index

#184

Post by sodafountan » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 4:40 AM UTC

puranjay wrote: post #160

lukev wrote: post #132

The energy consumption of Bitcoin isn't new news. What continues to disappoint me, however, is how many people immediately jump to its defense with arguments based on the value it provides, as if that offset its cost. What gets neglected is that the Bitcoin algorithm is inherently wasteful . By its very design, it results in an insane amount of duplicated, pointless computation. The question isn't whether something l…

I don't even know what problem Bitcoin is solving anymore. I haven't seen a single website accepting Bitcoin as a payment in the last whole year.

It's solving a much much bigger problem than electronic payments (which was never really a problem in the first place unless you're overly concerned about privacy). We have a major problem with inflation in this world, you can't just put your money somewhere and have it retain its value anymore and it hasn't been like that for years, we're forced to play the stock market game which just consolidates power to big corporations and leaves a lot of people all over the world left behind - bitcoin actually solves that problem, and just to drive that point home, if you'd invested in bitcoin and held during just about any given 365 day period throughout its ten year lifespan you'd have likely beaten the stock market in gains by a lot, that helps a ton of people, especially young people who are saddled by debt. We have countries that have no reliable form of currency at all, again bitcoin solves that problem.

I agree with some of the sentiment of the article, bitcoin's energy consumption is something to keep an eye on and if we can seamlessly move to an algorithm that's greener then so be it but you have to realize the tremendous amount of good that bitcoin is doing for the world and will likely continue to do as it becomes scarcer and scarcer, don't knock a technology that can single handedly lift a continent like Africa out of poverty.

*edit: Nothing like defending bitcoin on Hacker News and getting downvoted to oblivion, hey rather than downvote why don't you point out exactly what you disagree with so we can have a discussion

Re: Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index

#185

Post by puranjay » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 4:46 AM UTC

sodafountan wrote: post #184

puranjay wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't even know what problem Bitcoin is solving anymore. I haven't seen a single website accepting Bitcoin as a payment in the last whole year.

It's solving a much much bigger problem than electronic payments (which was never really a problem in the first place unless you're overly concerned about privacy). We have a major problem with inflation in this world, you can't just put your money somewhere and have it retain its value anymore and it hasn't been like that for years, we're forced to play the stock market game which just consolidates power to big corp…

> We have countries that have no reliable form of currency at all, again bitcoin solves that problem

Countries that don't have reliable forms of currency also don't have reliable power or internet access.

Re: Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index

#186

Post by sodafountan » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 4:51 AM UTC

puranjay wrote: post #185

sodafountan wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's solving a much much bigger problem than electronic payments (which was never really a problem in the first place unless you're overly concerned about privacy). We have a major problem with inflation in this world, you can't just put your money somewhere and have it retain its value anymore and it hasn't been like that for years, we're forced to play the stock market game which just consolidates power to big corp…

> We have countries that have no reliable form of currency at all, again bitcoin solves that problem Countries that don't have reliable forms of currency also don't have reliable power or internet access.

and yet all you need is a simple phone and access to these satellites: https://blockstream.com/satellite/

I agree the infrastructure isn't there yet but problems with national currency is a government issue, infrastructure issues can usually be solved but governmental issues tend to be a lot harder and all countries that rely on fiat currency are subject to inflation

Re: Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index

#187

Post by blueprint » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 4:51 AM UTC

zallarak wrote: post #181

Clarifications (this website perpetuates some common misconceptions): - A single bitcoin "transaction" can actually have thousands of inputs and thousands of outputs. So energy "per transaction" or "transactions per second" is not analogous to a typical monetary transaction. - Bitcoin does not compete with literal credit card transactions (although some use it like that today). I'd compare Bitcoin on-chain transactio…

Don't know why you were downvoted. Excellent comment.

Re: Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index

#188

Post by NeedMoreTea » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 4:53 AM UTC

donatj wrote: post #137

lukev wrote: post #132

The energy consumption of Bitcoin isn't new news. What continues to disappoint me, however, is how many people immediately jump to its defense with arguments based on the value it provides, as if that offset its cost. What gets neglected is that the Bitcoin algorithm is inherently wasteful . By its very design, it results in an insane amount of duplicated, pointless computation. The question isn't whether something l…

With energy becoming more and more renewable, does it really matter if BTC uses a lot of it?

So long as BTC is adequately carbon taxed, probably not.

Re: Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index

#189

Post by zygimantasdev » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 4:54 AM UTC

puranjay wrote: post #185

sodafountan wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's solving a much much bigger problem than electronic payments (which was never really a problem in the first place unless you're overly concerned about privacy). We have a major problem with inflation in this world, you can't just put your money somewhere and have it retain its value anymore and it hasn't been like that for years, we're forced to play the stock market game which just consolidates power to big corp…

> We have countries that have no reliable form of currency at all, again bitcoin solves that problem Countries that don't have reliable forms of currency also don't have reliable power or internet access.

I would argue all currencies are unreliable ,because they go down in value due increase of supply. Throwing 2-4% every year sounds awful

Re: Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index

#190

Post by WizardAustralis » Thu, Oct 17, 2019, 4:58 AM UTC

donatj wrote: post #137

lukev wrote: post #132

The energy consumption of Bitcoin isn't new news. What continues to disappoint me, however, is how many people immediately jump to its defense with arguments based on the value it provides, as if that offset its cost. What gets neglected is that the Bitcoin algorithm is inherently wasteful . By its very design, it results in an insane amount of duplicated, pointless computation. The question isn't whether something l…

With energy becoming more and more renewable, does it really matter if BTC uses a lot of it?

Don`t mix up the idea of renewable and infinite. Theoretically it can be done but until we each that point it definetly is not working like that.