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Depressed People See the World More Realistically (2017)

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Re: Depressed People See the World More Realistically (2017)

#241

I'm not so depressed these days (thankfully) but this "realism" does tend to manifest is different ways. I'm very self-conscious about not dragging people down because some thoughts that I think daily that are normal for me, seem to be absolutely psychologically crippling for people who previously hadn't, or didn't want to think such things. Usually when I do express these thoughts they're in the form of semi-dark hu…

I'm actually not prone to depression, but I am prone to the kinds of observations you describe. It gets me a lot of hatred and I've worked at finding acceptable outlets.

Not only am I not prone to depression, my mother called me Shirley Temple when I was little (in part because of my sunny disposition). I can kind of relate to Sara from Jake Long, American Dragon. She's a Seer or Oracle who only sees all the bad outcomes. Her twin sister, Kara, only sees good outcomes.

Sara is always in a good mood because all of her surprises in life are pleasant surprises. Kara is always in a bad mood because life is a huge disappointment that never lives up to her rosy visions of the future.

https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Sara_and_Kara

Conclusion: One's own attitude -- whether it is positive or negative -- is not the issue per se. Overly accurate observations about how life works socially are simply unwelcome by most people for reasons unrelated to that metric.

Re: Depressed People See the World More Realistically (2017)

#242

I'm not so depressed these days (thankfully) but this "realism" does tend to manifest is different ways. I'm very self-conscious about not dragging people down because some thoughts that I think daily that are normal for me, seem to be absolutely psychologically crippling for people who previously hadn't, or didn't want to think such things. Usually when I do express these thoughts they're in the form of semi-dark hu…

Oh man, I can totally relate to that. I was working as a line-cook, and my direct manager was talking to me in private about how proud he was of progressing to management in a short period of time. I said something like, "yeah, but at the end of the day you're a manager at a shitty taco place." I meant it in a dark, lighthearted, joking-not-joking sort of way. He brought that interaction up for months, saying that I…

This made me smile. You sound like a really empathetic less-empathetic person..! And I mean that in a grateful way. (By "less-empathetic" I just mean it sounds like you don't spend a ton of energy constantly doing social navigation of the mental spaces of others, like an empath such as myself might.)

I feel that not many people walk the line you're walking, and so I feel like you're prob bridging the "pessimistic realism" chasm for others, and helping them derive the value of seeing it (but you're recognizing that it can hurt others to be presented it too clearly).

Re: Depressed People See the World More Realistically (2017)

#243
post #16

Take a moment and consider this quote by the late Amos Tversky about his view on pessimism: "When you are a pessimist and the bad thing happens, you live it twice,' Amos liked to say. 'Once when you worry about it, and the second time when it happens." This is a rational explanation for why anyone ought not succumb to pessimism.

This is incorrect. When you take realistic (some people call it pessimistic) view on situation, you are disappointed initially, but when it finally happens, you are already fine - "told ya so!" and move on.

Re: Depressed People See the World More Realistically (2017)

#244
post #156

Here's an important thing from the article: >it's most likely to occur in mildly depressed people—those suffering from major depression, by contrast, are more likely to suffer from larger distortions in their thinking. I wonder if we have overly-pathologized the regular melancholy that comes with every day life? If mildly depressed people actually see the world realistically, maybe nothing is actually wrong with them…

> Should we call them depressed or should we just call them human?

But what if being human involves the delusion. Perceiving reality as it is might not be "normal", nor "human".

(Pls CTRL+F my username elsewhere in thread for some context there :)

Re: Depressed People See the World More Realistically (2017)

#245
post #156

Here's an important thing from the article: >it's most likely to occur in mildly depressed people—those suffering from major depression, by contrast, are more likely to suffer from larger distortions in their thinking. I wonder if we have overly-pathologized the regular melancholy that comes with every day life? If mildly depressed people actually see the world realistically, maybe nothing is actually wrong with them…

"It's okay, normal, even necessary to feel sad and pissed off at the world sometimes. It doesn't automatically mean something is wrong with you." But this is not what mild depression is like. It is when feeling sad and pissed off at the world is the baseline. It is OK to feel sad, but I kinda wish I felt something else a bit more often.

Have you seen what (most of) the world looks like? Feeling sad and pissed off at it is the correct baseline.

Re: Depressed People See the World More Realistically (2017)

#246
post #236
post #233

This reminds me of this amazing TED Talk: Do we see reality as it is? (Donald Hoffman, cognitive scientist) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYp5XuGYqqY The intellectual bomb in the video is this: Organisms that perceive only "fitness" drive to extinction all organisms that perceive reality as it is. (in model systems simulating environments and creatures navigating them) My take: at every level, it would seem, percei…

And Jordan Peterson turned this on its head by pretending that what is fitting is the truth :)

ah interesting. thanks! I hear a ton about him (he lives in my city), but i didn't realize that the above was one of the cruxes of his philosophy...!

Re: Depressed People See the World More Realistically (2017)

#247
post #225

> researchers presented both depressed and non-depressed participants with a button and a green light. They then asked the participants to figure out to what degree their responses (pushing the button) controlled that light. Depressed participants were much better at judging the degree of their control, while participants who weren't depressed tended to assume that they had more control over the light than they actua…

Or maybe the person is just an introvert or has sensory issues - then a fun party becomes a torture chamber. As me how I know.

Yeah sucks doesn't it. I'm a friendly out going person. But I just can't do pubs or bars or clubs because the noise just overwhelms me and I become a jibbering idiot. Sad times

Re: Depressed People See the World More Realistically (2017)

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Piercing the veil... what an appropriate turn of phrase. I resonate a lot with your third paragraph. I also think it can be rude and unnecessary to expose people to this paradigm if they're not ready. It's a bad analogy, but it's almost like poison. If you're used to some types of poison, they wont cause injury, but if you're not... it could kill you. Trouble is, in my mind life is filled with these poisons and peopl…

Be really careful with the poison analogy. As another depressive person, I have lost most of my social circle because I consider my thoughts dangerous for others, don't lose touch with people around you because you try to hard to insulate them from your thoughts that might damage them. If you work hard to make your gallows humor actually funny, you can turn things around. No one really knows the person who is too qui…

> As another depressive person, I have lost most of my social circle because I consider my thoughts dangerous for others, don't lose touch with people around you because you try to hard to insulate them from your thoughts that might damage them.

So far this conversation has been around dark pessimistic takes on life, death, and work. I'd like to throw out that there are some descriptive things I believe about the world that I have no desire to spread, because I think that people will generally treat each other worse if they accept the ideas. Because of the very nature of such ideas I hesitate to provide any real examples, but as an absurd and (hopefully) harmless illustration we could use Roko's basilisk. If you believed such a thing, and you weren't trying to spread it for selfish reasons, wouldn't you just not talk about it? I've made the mistake of arguing horrible things which I myself didn't want to believe to close friends and actually changing their minds in ways I wish I could take back... but can't. It's ugly, and I try to avoid it these days, but I do also feel somewhat disingenuous because of that -- I think that's just something I have to bottle up and accept.

>If you work hard to make your gallows humor actually funny, you can turn things around. No one really knows the person who is too quiet, no one really likes the bitter person who always complains about everything, but the depressed dark humor guy can be the life of the party.

I've been this person, and still am in some social circles. I appreciated working in environments that can tolerate dark humor. On a visceral level I really don't understand the other poster who brought up the mental anguish of hearing suicide jokes, despite having dealt with suicidal friends in the past. I don't understand what it's like to get triggered by a suicide joke, but that doesn't mean the experience is invalid, or that the benefits of me being able to make suicide jokes in the workplace outweigh the detriments of other people being sent into dark rumination cycles because of them. It seems presumptuous to assume that somebody else getting upset at a joke is necessarily a result of the joke not being funny enough, they might be in a vastly different headspace that is hard to understand from the perspective of somebody who relishes in dark humor.

Re: Depressed People See the World More Realistically (2017)

#249
post #216
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's depressing about the current world of software? For example the insanity that it is impossible to understand what actually happens below the surface. The ideal that I have in the back of my mind is that a highly gifted person who can afford to spend a few years of intensive study can really understand each individual line/byte of code that gets executed on the computer (i.e. all of the software that runs on…

I had this sentiment quit often in the beginning of my career. Now, I simply realize that my lack of understanding crosses every single piece of technology there is. Fridge? No idea. Cars? Well, I can drive it almost as well as I can open a fridge, everything else is magic. How about bicycle? That's easy, right? Well, I challenge you to just now sit down and write a detailed schematic, describing everything that is n…

I'll take up the challenge:

Fridge - well, the standard compressor powered refrigeration system is essentially a heat moving system. What we are doing is moving heat from the inside of the system (which is insulated and mostly "isolated" from the outside of the system) to the outside of the system. This is why you can't cool your house by opening your refrigerator's door, because the heat from the inside of the fridge is moved to the "outside" (the room it is in) - eventually, it would reach equilibrium (and the compressor would probably be overheated). So anyhow, how does this work?

Well - basically by compression and expansion.

A working fluid (the refrigerant - usually a gas in the low-pressure state, and a fluid in the high pressure state) is compressed using a compressor. This turns the gas into its fluid state, and also heats up the gas. It is moved (via the compressor) thru coils on the inside (insulated) of the system, where it is allowed to expand.

Note that in this system there is also a series of check valves and such to prevent the fluid and gas from "moving backwards" in the system; there are also stages where the gas and fluid exist at the same time (like a fizzy drink if you could see it).

During this expansion, it absorbs heat and it also gains volume (turns from a fluid back into a gas). It continues to move (with it's heat content) from the insulated side of the system (inside) to the outside of the system, where it goes thru other coils (radiator), usually with a fan or other cooling system blowing over them to remove the excess heat from them, before the gas goes back to the compressor to be compressed and turned into a fluid again - to begin the cycle anew.

That's the basics of how a refrigerator work. Now - usually, if there's a freezer section, the freezer is where the heat exchange really happens, and cold air from the freezer is periodically circulated from the freezer to the refrigerator portion to keep that side at a cooler temperature.

Air conditioners work the same way - except the "inside" is the house and the outside is...the outdoors. Heat pumps can run in reverse, so to warm your house, heat is moved from the "outside" to the inside of the house, by the very same process (even when it is "freezing" outside - there is still a ton of heat energy available).

This cycle can also be done with heat alone, provided you have a working fluid (refrigerant) which is liquid at the "outside" temperature (under whatever pressure the liquid is at); add a check valve, heat the liquid up, it will expand and turn into a gas, feed it into the insulated part of the system to absorb more heat and then into some outside coils to be cooled down and turned back into a liquid. You can make a fridge where the refrigerant is gasoline (petrol) if you so wanted to. Ammonia is another alternative. LPG can also be used like this, too.

That's basically how a propane or solar powered refrigerator works (I won't go into how dark-sky refrigeration works, suffice to say it is another form of "solar" refrigeration, more of a "backwards" method).

Car? Well - a four-cycle engine is basically this: suck (intake), squeeze (compression), bang (ignition/power), blow (exhaust). Also, for an engine to run, you need fuel, spark, and air - miss any of those (or wrong timing or proportions) things won't work. I won't go into further detail - I really could, I'm sure you can see.

Suffice to say - I could also describe that bicycle very exactly, how it works, how it is steered (the whole "turn in the opposite direction of the lean" thing...), etc.

I've got a ton of this crap shoved into my head; I relish learning new stuff all the time, no matter what it is. Sometimes (most of the time) I don't absorb it all in one shot. But I usually retain enough of it to be able to understand more a second and third time around. Some things I will probably never fully understand (higher math is my bane, though I try - also, I'll probably never understand chemistry or biology on anything more than a superficial level), but that doesn't keep them from my interest.

Why am I like this? Not sure, I've always been a very curious and inquisitive person since I was a child. I've found that having these tidbits and more of knowledge and such socked away has helped me make connections and analogies in other areas, to solve problems - and sometimes raise other questions, which just leads me down another rabbit hole at times.

As you can tell - take me to a library and I could easily get lost for hours. Don't get me started on any of the warrens available on the internet (or the internet itself for that matter)...

Re: Depressed People See the World More Realistically (2017)

#250
post #244
post #156

Here's an important thing from the article: >it's most likely to occur in mildly depressed people—those suffering from major depression, by contrast, are more likely to suffer from larger distortions in their thinking. I wonder if we have overly-pathologized the regular melancholy that comes with every day life? If mildly depressed people actually see the world realistically, maybe nothing is actually wrong with them…

> Should we call them depressed or should we just call them human? But what if being human involves the delusion. Perceiving reality as it is might not be "normal", nor "human". (Pls CTRL+F my username elsewhere in thread for some context there :)

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