Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links • Hacker News Board

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#361

Post by krn » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 4:35 PM UTC

dessant wrote: post #349

krn wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Disallowing developers from using in-app billing for donations, while also barring them from linking to external donation platforms, puts open source projects in a difficult position, and appears to be overly hostile towards funding open source development. Google Play has been very clear about this[1]: > Fund solicitations > Examples: Donation solicitations from parties without a valid 501(c)(3) tax exempt status…

It appears only non-profit organizations are allowed to use Google Play In-app Billing for donations, which is fine. But why are we forbidden from linking to an external page that lists other ways to support a project, such as Patreon? I think we should stop being apologetic, and begin to call out Google for the damage they are inflicting upon open source developers.

> If only non-profit organizations are allowed to use Google Play In-app Billing for donations

Nobody is allowed to use Google Play's in-app billing for donations, and only organizations with a valid tax exempt status can link to an external page that lists donation options.

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#362

Post by jtbayly » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 4:38 PM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #199

jtbayly wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yikes. Really? Where do you live? I can’t imagine living someplace where I’m forbidden from picking up a wrench. Heaven forbid I buy some PVC pipe. Who knows what mischief I might get up to! For the record, I do my own break pads. And have done the master cylinder (thing that powers the breaks) on my cars a couple of times. Not just without formal training. Without any training except what I could quickly Google.

Europe. When I lived in the US I saw cars with bald tires, clearly damaged frames, spewing insane amount of smoke &c. on the road daily, I'm glad I don't have to deal with that over here.

44 states have minimum tread depth specified in the law. Almost nobody has the tool necessary to replace a tire anyway, so nobody does that themselves. So what’s your point?

Not sure why you would assume that prohibiting people from working on their cars would increase the level of maintenance.

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#363

Post by dessant » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 4:38 PM UTC

krn wrote: post #361

dessant wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It appears only non-profit organizations are allowed to use Google Play In-app Billing for donations, which is fine. But why are we forbidden from linking to an external page that lists other ways to support a project, such as Patreon? I think we should stop being apologetic, and begin to call out Google for the damage they are inflicting upon open source developers.

> If only non-profit organizations are allowed to use Google Play In-app Billing for donations Nobody is allowed to use Google Play's in-app billing for donations, and only organizations with a valid tax exempt status can link to an external page that lists donation options.

The page you linked to lists activities that are forbidden if you use Google payments.

> Any individual or business processing transactions with Google payments must adhere to these policies.

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#364

Post by black_puppydog » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 4:38 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #341

helpPeople wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree. I do not want to restrict any users. Annoying how hard it is to be independent of FAANG control.

I don’t know much about Android, but is the Play store necessary? If it isn’t, then isn’t that independence from FAANG control?

That's like telling a convenience store owner that they're "independent" of Visa and Mastercard. Yeah sure, good luck with that.

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#365

Post by dmix » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 4:39 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #290

We merged a similar thread, "AndOTP Removed from the Google Play Store Due to Donation Link", into this one. Perhaps we'll update the title to cover both. https://github.com/andOTP/andOTP/issues/396 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21269542

Just to add clarity these were two different apps that were taken down: Wireguard and AndOTP (among others mentioned in this thread)

Wireguard had 50k+ installs according to its (now dead) playstore page: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:kSsZsb...

AndOTP had 10k+ installs: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:buaKcF...

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#366

Post by peterwwillis » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 4:39 PM UTC

Santosh83 wrote: post #143

peterwwillis wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're asking for is technology literacy, similar to science literacy. Adults generally don't care to learn this stuff. But you can teach the next generation.

Yes, and the tech industry is already several decades old and multiple generations have come and gone, but today's tech consumers seem to be even less confident of poking behind the surface than those of the yesteryears. And do note that there was a point in history when even basic literacy belonged to a small few who argued in exactly the same manner than tech people do today, i.e., that most people will never be ab…

> basic literacy that would obviate the excuse for tight, walled gardens and locked down devices

You can do whatever you want on a platform like Windows because they make their money off of selling support for their platform, and selling their own products for it.

Google and Apple do not make money selling support for their platform, and only Apple really focuses on selling products for it. But they both make money by tightly controlling their platforms, in order to to squeeze money from developers, [in the case of Google] from manufacturers, from carriers, from users' payments, and from all the data they collect about it all. They don't have to care about the customer at all, and they can just focus on engineering. It's the programmer's dream.

Their business model is a walled garden, and they pick the fruits of that garden. In the case of Google, they run the Android platform so they have a way to still make ad money if Apple denied them access to that platform. In the case of Apple, they run the Apple platform so they can make money from expensive consumer devices, and also use it to control more of the services/products we use.

So, it really doesn't have anything to do with literacy. Even if everyone were a genius, their choice is still A) don't use a smartphone, or B) use a walled-garden smartphone.

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#367

Post by tolmasky » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 4:41 PM UTC

krn wrote: post #340

dessant wrote: post #235

Google Play In-app Billing does not support donations [1], so open source developers should be allowed to link to their own donation pages. Google Play policies do not spell out that linking to donation platforms such as Patreon is forbidden. Disallowing developers from using in-app billing for donations, while also barring them from linking to external donation platforms, puts open source projects in a difficult pos…

> Disallowing developers from using in-app billing for donations, while also barring them from linking to external donation platforms, puts open source projects in a difficult position, and appears to be overly hostile towards funding open source development. Google Play has been very clear about this[1]: > Fund solicitations > Examples: Donation solicitations from parties without a valid 501(c)(3) tax exempt status…

Sure, but why? If the rules clearly said "no chess games", one could say "that ends the discussion of why chess games are denied", or you could further ask "but why are no chess games allowed?". Is it because Google plans on having their own Google-Chess someday and thus is preemptively preventing competition? Is there a technical or regulatory reason chess games aren't allowed?

That's the question (at least for me) here: why are (non-tax-exempt) donations not allowed, beyond the tautological response of "because the rules say so"? I'm not familiar with the regulations around this area, so for all I know there's a great non-Google reason for this and Google just wants to avoid the hassle of conforming to some law. Or maybe donations is a feature they want to eventually support in Google Play and they don't want to have to force a bunch of apps in the future to switch once they add it (which would be a more disappointing reason). Perhaps they're afraid that it would create a loophole where people could get around the 30% cut since psychologically it feels shitty for someone to middle-man a donation, but then if they made donations Google-tax free, everyone would just choose "donation" and they'd have to police this.

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#368

Post by kragen » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 4:42 PM UTC

edhelas wrote: post #313

My social-network/IM app ( https://movim.eu/ ) got also removed from the Play Store because I had a link to the F-Droid app. The Android app is basically a web-view pointing to one of the many instances of the social network https://nl.movim.eu/?login . Regarding the time (and also money) spent to publish the APK on the Play Store and the hassle it is to discuss with the Google moderation team I didn't bothered putti…

That's interesting — not a donation page, but an F-Droid page (which as far as I know doesn't accept donations)? When did this happen?

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#369

Post by 0xEFF » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 4:42 PM UTC

BlueTemplar wrote: post #326

Spivak wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you can't use Google's store as a sales funnel without giving them a 30% cut. It doesn't matter if you're a company taking payments or an individual accepting donations.

I'm not a lawyer, but aren't sales and donations quite different? For instance donations tend to have negative taxes...

Not unless your entity is 503(c) tax-exempt which is explicitly allowed by Google.

These “donations” are more like tips, which are treated as taxable income.

I don’t see the problem here. The outrage in this thread seems more about people wanting a different set of rules for OSS and possibly avoiding income tax than anything else. If there are a different set of rules for OSS, then that just makes it easier to abuse the platform. Google’s policy seems fair to me.

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#370

Post by heavyset_go » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 4:42 PM UTC

Steltek wrote: post #169

djsumdog wrote: post #138

The Apple/Play stores are essentially a totally broken implementation of something that had existed for over a decade before: package repositories. It's embraced and extended Linux/BSD package/ports trees, except without things like the ability to add a 3rd party repository with other authors signing keys, pin certain versions, etc. https://battlepenguin.com/tech/android-fragmentation/#packag... We could go on about…

Don't conflate Apple's monopoly with Google's store. Anyone can go install F-Droid or Amazon or whatever on their Android phone. The only thing stopping people is satisfaction with the status quo and/or ignorance. However, Apple totally rules their walled garden, with some added gross exploitation to boot (recent "Sherlocking" story for Luna Display).

Google neutered F-Droid's ability to do automatic updates.