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To Really Learn, Quit Studying and Take a Test

nytimes.com

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Re: To Really Learn, Quit Studying and Take a Test

#21

Post by arghnoname »

ionfish wrote: post #2

Here's one example of this kind of phenomenon. If you really want to understand a question, write a paper about it. It's easy enough to read five or ten research papers in an area, and if you do that thoroughly, and write extensive notes as you do so, you'll start to feel that you understand the area and the issues involved. However, if the way you learn is much like mine, when you try to start writing you will reali…

I never put two and two together, but I have long been amazed at how well I understand how the EU is put together, its history, etc, all just from having to write a 20 page paper on the topic once. This is true of other topics as well. More than once I've gone into it and came out the other side with the opposite opinion I started with.

But despite the clear efficacy of this method, it never occurred to me to do it on my own, just to learn something. It's a lot of work and somewhat painful, but I suppose a more complete mastery always is.

Re: To Really Learn, Quit Studying and Take a Test

#22

Post by aik »

tygorius wrote: post #19
aik wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This entire article is so full of that kind of crap - full of baseless insinuations and twisted meanings - it completely infuriates me. With the influx of recent NYT articles on education I'm nearly convinced the NYT is purposely trying to sabotage education (or rather they have a clear agenda, which I wish I knew where came from, that they are pushing through by twisting other people's words). As you say, retrieval…

What NYT seems to want you to think: Test taking is the best way to learn. Forget in depth studying techniques or figuring out how you yourself learn. I had the opposite reaction. I figured the writer had been so indoctrinated into the view that "teaching to the test" was evil, bad, and wrong, that when a positive result popped related to testing, just that one point alone became the "news" hook of the story. Hmm, in…

Interesting. Wow, she's written over 1000 articles.

The problem I have with it is exactly what you're saying. Perhaps she is indoctrinated with the view that "tests are bad". Regardless, it is a popular view and a spicy topic. What bothers me is that this article seems to have a blanket "no, apparently tests are good" tint. Do you agree? The study seems to have absolutely nothing to do with that in particular, and the findings really don't either.

I do definitely agree that the writer sounds indoctrinated. The first sentence of the article shows signs: "Taking a test is not just a passive mechanism for assessing how much people know, according to new research."

This sentence makes me think that the purpose and end of tests is assessing, rather than a means to gather information to enable better learning in the future.

Re: To Really Learn, Quit Studying and Take a Test

#23

Post by arghnoname »

bartonfink wrote: post #4
ionfish wrote: post #2

Here's one example of this kind of phenomenon. If you really want to understand a question, write a paper about it. It's easy enough to read five or ten research papers in an area, and if you do that thoroughly, and write extensive notes as you do so, you'll start to feel that you understand the area and the issues involved. However, if the way you learn is much like mine, when you try to start writing you will reali…

I think you're spot on. You don't really understand something unless you can explain it to an interested yet uninformed outsider.

I think the strength comes from being forced to defend your positions. Any paper worth its salt anticipates and defuses most likely objections. It really does force away any areas where one might have hand-waved.

I think (as someone else mentioned too) teaching is generally good because one never knows where and when a challenge may present itself, but I'd suspect a paper gives deeper results, whereas teaching gives broader results, and both give more than study with neither.

Re: To Really Learn, Quit Studying and Take a Test

#24

Post by jeremydavid »

This is how I got through University. As I read my textbooks I wrote out every main point as a question. At the end of my reading I would have a huge list, and when I could answer them all I would finish studying.

Never failed a test, or was ever forced to stay up late "cramming" for an exam.

Re: To Really Learn, Quit Studying and Take a Test

#25

Post by kenjackson »

ghshephard wrote: post #10

ARGH. The title completely ignores the fact that the experiment-subjects that retained the information the best DIDN'T just take a test, they also retrieved it from memory and wrote what they knew. THEN they were tested on it. Horrible, horrible summary. A better title might have been "What they say is true, Read, Write, [Recite] - Then you'll test well." That is: "Read the Source Material - let's say a chapter of 10…

Isn't the one or two page summary the test? The Science paper refers to the "test" as retrieval practice.

I guess I'm a little unclear on how this is different than what you state or what the NYTimes states.

Re: To Really Learn, Quit Studying and Take a Test

#26

Post by cema »

ionfish wrote: post #2

Here's one example of this kind of phenomenon. If you really want to understand a question, write a paper about it. It's easy enough to read five or ten research papers in an area, and if you do that thoroughly, and write extensive notes as you do so, you'll start to feel that you understand the area and the issues involved. However, if the way you learn is much like mine, when you try to start writing you will reali…

And my experience is: I do not really understand it unless I can program it.

To sum up this subthread: we all understand "it" better when we have experience of active involvement with it, not just passive studying.

Re: To Really Learn, Quit Studying and Take a Test

#27

Post by ashearer »

bartonfink wrote: post #4
ionfish wrote: post #2

Here's one example of this kind of phenomenon. If you really want to understand a question, write a paper about it. It's easy enough to read five or ten research papers in an area, and if you do that thoroughly, and write extensive notes as you do so, you'll start to feel that you understand the area and the issues involved. However, if the way you learn is much like mine, when you try to start writing you will reali…

I think you're spot on. You don't really understand something unless you can explain it to an interested yet uninformed outsider.

This is what I've found about programming as well. Computers are unforgiving of any gaps in your understanding, so explaining a process to a computer improves both you and the computer.

Of course, not all ideas can be so neatly expressed in code. Constructing essays and explanations for people is similar, though it's easier to finesse gaps with rhetorical tricks.

Re: To Really Learn, Quit Studying and Take a Test

#28

Post by barrkel »

ericHosick wrote: post #15

We retain (1): 10% of what we read 20% of what we hear 30% of what we see 50% of what we hear and see 70% of what we say 90% of what we teach I used to lecture at a college. After learning about this the answer for me was like duh... I made my students teach my classes. (1) Edgar Dale, Audio-Visual Methods in Teaching 3rd Edition. Holt, Rinehart, and Winston (1969)

When I was a kid, whenever I was learning about some aspect of computing, I would have a running monologue in my head about how I would explain this to someone else, to the point that I would write out on a piece of paper an explanation of e.g. an adder composed out of boolean gates, or of how 2's complement made negative numbers work, out of sheer enthusiasm for what I was learning.

Re: To Really Learn, Quit Studying and Take a Test

#30

Post by csomar »

It may also be that the struggle involved in recalling something helps reinforce it in our brains.

I think something happens here, it's like you send your mind a command: "You didn't memorize that thing, huh? Okay, be careful next time, this is needed for the test".

Notice that when you read the next time, it's kind of your mind is prepared to put that information somewhere, in a manner that it can be retrieved later by the exam.

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