Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links • Hacker News Board

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#241

Post by mwcampbell » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:37 PM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #121

Santosh83 wrote: post #86

A general comment: the need of the hour is to educate the billions of 'ordinary' computer users about the basics of software, privacy, security and trust. We must not fall into the narrative being parroted around off-late that considers end-users as pretty much dumb content consumers who should not be expected to ever know even the minimum about the underlying tech and therefore every decision needs to be made for th…

What you're asking for is technology literacy, similar to science literacy. Adults generally don't care to learn this stuff. But you can teach the next generation.

I want to do this with my nieces and nephew, if they and their parents are willing. I think I already screwed up, though, when I bought Amazon Fire tablets for three of them for Christmas in 2017. Granted, they were around 3 years old at the time, so maybe they couldn't handle anything more. Still, I'm wondering what I should buy them next time. My sense of nostalgia tells me that I should buy them something at least as hackable as my Apple IIGS was. But that might not be practical. As one of my best friends pointed out to me, if I buy them an all-open-source computer, they're likely to protest, "But Uncle Matt, why can't it play [insert kids' TV show here]?". And they're not likely to accept my anti-DRM stance.

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#242

Post by hawski » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

I like the way that the author of Simple Mobile Tools [0] made donations. Applications are free and open source, but there is a paid app Simple Thank You [1].

That's also how I was thinking about doing "donationware" on a mobile app store.

Side note: They are also available on F-Droid.

[0] https://play.google.com/store/apps/collection/cluster?clp=ig...

[1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.simplemobi...

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#243

Post by wickedsickeune » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:41 PM UTC

bpfrh wrote: post #168

Spivak wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it an abuse of their power? Google and Apple are essentially saying that if you use their store as a sales funnel then they take a 30% cut, and they enforce that by being the sole payment processor on the store. Basically Google and Apple both know that people will make more money by listing in their stores and taking a 30% cut than not listing at all.

For the same reason microsoft had to give you an option for the preinstalled browser. As soon as you get a certain threeshold you become a monopoly, which essentialy means you controll who does business in that sector. It should never be allowed to be a distributor as well as the owner of a marketplace. It's the same problem with amazon marketplace and other similar things. EDIT: Formatting

Not exactly. Being a monopoly is fine. Google is a monopoly in search for example. It's not fine when you use that monopoly power to either stifle competition (like what MS did), or to demonstrably harm the consumer (very hard to prove).

Just because Google Play is a monopoly, it doesn't mean that it's illegal or should be fined. Especially since there are other options, like amazon's app store, or manual installation of apps.

Especially compared to iOS, Android is a paradise of freedom.

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#244

Post by lightedman » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:43 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #210

black_puppydog wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. most open source software is not even close to breaking even via donations. so "making more money" really is a misleading way to portrait the situation. 2. I hope we can agree that "if you use their store as a sales funnel then they take a 30% cut" is at least a use of their power. The fact that there's no recourse, no (practical) competition for the distribution, and that they're not acting in agreement with thei…

> In my opinion blackmailing the devs I don’t know what you think the verb ‘to blackmail’ means, but nobody has been blackmailed or anything like it in this situation.

Correct, the more precise term here is extortion, and I can speak to that having had to face that exact criminal charge before. It follows pretty much every required element of the crime.

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#245

Post by lotsofpulp » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:43 PM UTC

xnyan wrote: post #193

whalesalad wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your analogy is certainly interesting... but expecting everyone to want or know how to look under the hood of their car is a little delusional. Most people don’t even know or care to check their oil. They drive from A to B and only take their car in for service when a light is illuminated on the dash or if it’s making a funny noise. Personally, I do all my own maintenance and love to look under my hood. My wife? She’…

A better analogy might be a hood locked with a separate key only Apple has. Your wife wants to visit an experienced local car shop? Pound sand.

It's best to avoid analogies. Computing devices nowadays contain all of one's information including sensitive photos, passwords, ability to authenticate, location data, and other security risks that a car doesn't pose.

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#246

Post by EGreg » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:44 PM UTC

One of our apps (https://Yang2020.app) were rejected by Apple for the same reason - having a Donate link. Ultimately we removed the link on native apps (kept it on the Web) and the app was accepted.

However, before doing this, we corresponded with Apple Developer Support / App Review Team and asked them about the Acceptable Business Models of their developer guidelines, which states:

(vii) Apps may enable individual users to give a monetary gift to another individual without using in-app purchase, provided that (a) the gift is a completely optional choice by the giver, and (b) 100% of the funds go to the receiver of the gift. However, a gift that is connected to or associated at any point in time with receiving digital content or services must use in-app purchase.

They scheduled a “specialist” to call us from Apple and discuss this. However when they called a few days later, they repeatedly declined to give a single example of how this paragraph would ever apply. We tried asking many different ways, but they kept saying we would need to submit the app with the business model to get it reviewed. They would not give a single example of an app they approved with this business model. I personally was on the phone and said that we simply wanted to be compliant and it was very expensive to build something just to be rejected, so we wanted guidance about their policies. But the representative did not know anything. I asked if anyone else on their team knew but they basically said no.

So Apple seems to have certain “platitudes” in their Guidelines which companies can’t take advantage of.

Has anyone here seen a single exception to the 30% cut? I know ApplePay may be used to purchase “real-life” items and where you can’t afford to pay 30% less to the vendor. But what about services, like booking time with a teacher? What about digital services such as hosting a videoconference? Apple takes a 30% but you have to pay Twilio. That means any web-based app would cost 30% less!

We were hoping that maybe there can be some link to buy things with Ethereum and since Apple doesn’t offer that facility we can try to argue that we need transactions to be non-reversible etc. Doesn’t Apple allow apps that allow the user to send and receive bitcoin payments to some address? BOOM!

Another thing we can do is micropayments, maybe, and tell users how they can purchase credits elsewhere. But that last part is against Apple’s rules, isn’t it?

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#247

Post by Nux » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:45 PM UTC

hawski wrote: post #242

I like the way that the author of Simple Mobile Tools [0] made donations. Applications are free and open source, but there is a paid app Simple Thank You [1]. That's also how I was thinking about doing "donationware" on a mobile app store. Side note: They are also available on F-Droid. [0] https://play.google.com/store/apps/collection/cluster?clp=ig... [1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.simplemobi.…

Yes, this is quite a good workaround, though probably less lucrative.

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#248

Post by ken » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:47 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #138

The Apple/Play stores are essentially a totally broken implementation of something that had existed for over a decade before: package repositories. It's embraced and extended Linux/BSD package/ports trees, except without things like the ability to add a 3rd party repository with other authors signing keys, pin certain versions, etc. https://battlepenguin.com/tech/android-fragmentation/#packag... We could go on about…

Huh? The "hood welded shut" analogy has always been about proprietary software. That's 99% of the Apple/Play stores already. We're already there.

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#249

Post by lightedman » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:47 PM UTC

dogma1138 wrote: post #195

flanbiscuit wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does GDPR cover these kind of issues where accounts/apps are demonetized or taken down because of some automated process mistake?

No.

Yes, it does actually. Article 22 of the GDPR covers this.

https://gdpr-info.eu/art-22-gdpr/

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#250

Post by dkyc » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:49 PM UTC

gowthamgts12 wrote: post #159

zimbatm wrote: post #127

The problem of donation links from Google's perspective is that they are not getting their 30% cut. You might think that this is unfair, but the app is using their distribution platform. It's possible to make open source applications and still ask for payment on Google Play, either as the asking price, subscription or by adding in-app payments for donations. This is the right way to do it, and will probably also have…

Going by your point, shouldn't Amazon be blocked since they are collecting the payment info and charging without any interference from Google? How are donation links being considered to be in violation? Just wondering!

The “30% cut” only applies to digital goods like apps, software or music. Physical goods like a book ordered from Amazon (or an Uber ride, for example) are exempt. Amazon-owned properties that sell digital goods are subject to the rule though. That’s for example why you can’t buy Audible audiobooks from within the app.