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California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

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Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#341

Post by ryanmercer »

non-entity wrote: post #5
socalnate1 wrote: post #3

My high school started at 7am. I also took the bus; which picked up around 6:15am; so I usually woke up around 5:45am during the week. I would often nod off during my first or second period; and routinely took 2-3 hour naps when I got home from school; which screwed up my ability to fall asleep early at night or get much homework done. I sometimes wonder what my academics would have been like if I was actually awake…

I've always been confused by TV shows showing kids leaving for school and it's bright outside with the whole family awake. Growing up, it was dark when we got up for school and just barely sun up (depending on the season still dark) by the time we left to get on the bus.

In the fall/winter when we were doing drama productions here (Indiana) in high school, I never saw the sun except via windows in classrooms that had windows. On the bus before the sun was up, at school before the sun was up, leave school after the sun had set. In junior high even in the spring we'd get to school (by walking) as the sun was coming up a couple times a week for FCA (Fellowship of Christian Athletes, at a public school in the cafeteria before school).

For that matter, that's basically work for me as an adult that time of year. Sun comes up after I get to work and sets within an hour or so of me leaving work late fall through early to mid winter.

Personally though I've never minded it. I've pretty much woken up between 5:45 and 6:45 my entire life, if I'm lucky I'll sleep in til 7-7:15 on the weekends. Getting up to get on the road for hunting or fishing as a kid meant getting up as early as 3:30 sometimes.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#342

Post by chadlavi »

collyw wrote: post #282

I am going to ask this again, as I never receive a satisfactory answer when this subject comes up. Isn't time all relative? Its just a number, which we adjust by an hour twice a year. It takes us a couple of days to get used to it. Can't people just be more disciplined and go to bed an hour earlier if they need an hours extra sleep? That's effectively what we do in spring when the clocks change. I came to this conclu…

> Can't people just be more disciplined and go to bed an hour earlier if they need an hours extra sleep?

You ever met kids?

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#343

Post by ryanmercer »

dsalzman wrote: post #4

School children are sleeping on average 1 hour less than theirs peers did 50 years ago. This has been driven by earlier and earlier school start times. Sleep deprivation in school age children has been linked to lower test scores, lower knowledge retention, higher rates of "trouble making". Really happy to see these laws getting put in place!

>School children are sleeping on average 1 hour less than theirs peers did 50 years ago.

And how much of that is due to

- Social media

- Gaming

- SMS/MMS/Marco Polo/etc

... I'm guessing quite a bit. Until I was 12 you were in bed, lights out, no tv by 8pm PERIOD for me and many of my friends. Past that if I wasn't in bed at 10 it was "why aren't you in bed? Turn the computer and TV off and if I pick up the phone you better not be on it!"

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#344

Post by ryanmercer »

tylerl wrote: post #198
briandear wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This has been driven by earlier and earlier school start times What about later and later bed times?

Bed times aren't mandated by a government board. School start times are. Also, later school start times have in other states led to better academic performance, better behavior, etc., independent of any control for bedtime. This decision has no downside. It's like mandating that hot dog vendors not sell disguised dog turds.

>Also, later school start times have in other states led to better academic performance, better behavior, etc., independent of any control for bedtime.

And how much of that is because kids are staying up to watch the Walking Talking After Dead Chat Show that start at 9, 10, 11pm or because they start getting tired playing Fortnight that late instead of learning how to fall asleep naturally and thus starting school later lets them stay up later and still get sleep?

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#345

Post by j8014 »

selectodude wrote: post #133
ThomPete wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont know what you mean with better, my two sons are top performers in their school and the school network is top 3% performing in NY state. They are in school at 7:45 latest each morning. There are many benefits to getting an early start in the morning as ling as you have had a long nights sleep. So i would like to see the base if those studies as they dont reflect the reality and statistics i know of. Edit to tho…

Getting out of bed before ten no matter when I went to sleep was a mortal struggle until I was probably 25. Now I’m gassed by 11 and up by 6. The research has shown that circadian rhythms change with age.

I fall asleep around 2-3am every night and am up at 7:15am during the week. I'm 39. I've been a night owl since I was a teen, and even today I have to force myself to sleep. During vacations it becomes extreme, I easily stay up till 6-7am and sleep till 12 or so - which seems to be ideal as I always revert to those times given 3-4 days where I'm not required to be up early. Adjusting my schedule back to "normal" involves skipping sleep for a night.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#346

Post by [deleted] »

Alupis wrote: post #247
slykat wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While what you say is true, does pushing the start time of class back 30 minutes or 1 hour make any difference? I'm skeptical. Did you read the article? They have done several studies to show a significance difference in academic performance with a slight shift. That's the whole reason for this change. "One three-year study (pdf, p.1) of 9,000 high-school students across three states, for example, found that academ…

Like I said - why not push it to a start time of noon or later then? Was that studied too? Or are we just basing policy off a half-baked idea, here in Calunicornia? I can be skeptical this will have any real impact, despite the findings of one survey-study. The cited study was a survey students voluntarily completed... which opens the door for response bias. The study was only conducted over a single school year, and…

[deleted]

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#347

Post by streb-lo »

cobookman wrote: post #290
rdlecler1 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a 20:1 to 30:1 ratio so are you suggesting it’s better for 20-30 working, single parent families? Maybe the government should pay teachers more and pay less on defense and we’d have a more productive society.

I've read multiple studies that the biggest influence in a kids success in school is their parents involvement. Don't make the assumption that throwing more money at teachers will improve our schools. Zuckerberg tried that with little success, as have many before him. I'd rather a focus on ensuring every kid has a healthy meal at the table. A support group who's invested in tbe individual kids success. A family that…

A quick peruse of Google scholar’s highly cited journal articles suggests it’s not as clear cut as you suggest:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00472...

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#348

Post by mcv »

udkl wrote: post #325
mcv wrote: post #305

> " one-quarter will need to wait an additional 31 to 60 minutes to get going." So one quarter of Californian schools were starting between 7 and 7:30? I'm surprised there haven't been revolts in the streets about that. That's completely ridiculous. Apparently this is to accommodate parents who need to leave for work at ridiculously early hours, but if you want to accommodate parents, why only those, and not the pare…

> why not take your kids to pre-school care? That’s a very privileged view. I would imagine most of the country cannot afford any sort of paid external care.

So what do working parents do after school? Schools starting early also end early, I assume. If kids can't go to school on their own, I guess they can't come home on their own either.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#349

Post by alistairSH »

ACow_Adonis wrote: post #49
socalnate1 wrote: post #3

My high school started at 7am. I also took the bus; which picked up around 6:15am; so I usually woke up around 5:45am during the week. I would often nod off during my first or second period; and routinely took 2-3 hour naps when I got home from school; which screwed up my ability to fall asleep early at night or get much homework done. I sometimes wonder what my academics would have been like if I was actually awake…

As someone who lives in a country where schools all uniformly started at 9:00 am (i'm probably wrong on that, but lets just go with it), what's the social-background/theoretical reason for starting the school day at 7:00am? From the outside that just seems absolutely bonkers?

As noted, bus scheduling. Because the US doesn't have a robust public transit system in most regions, it relies on dedicated school buses.

The really goofy thing is the schools are traditionally backwards. High school starts earliest (call it 7:30am), then middle school (call it 8:15am), and then elementary school (9am).

Physiologically, that should be reversed, as teenagers have a harder time getting enough sleep and functioning in the morning.

Timing-wise, starting ES earlier works out better for many parents, as a 9am school drop-off is too late for them to start their commute. So, one parent ends up time-shifting their work day in one direction (to drop off or walk to bus stop), and the other parent time shifts the other direction (to be home at the end of the school day). Failing that, the kid gets sent to in-school day-care before and/or after school.

If ES started at 7:30am, both parents could start their day at the same time, and only worry about child care after school (if neither can be home mid-afternoon).

Or, we could just stop sprawling all over the darn place, build some transit, and start all the school at whatever time makes sense for those students.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#350

Post by mrep »

plughs wrote: post #120
Hermitian909 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can tell you that, through most of the bay area at least, those policies are mostly about intentional socioeconomic segregation. My family has deep ties to local education infrastructure and its well known that most of the advocates for these policies are trying to keep poor kids out of their schools. While they don't say it in public forums they're generally more than happy to tell you in private.

Every year I see what a insurmountable advantage my kid has by having educated, comfortably well off parents. He's in 3rd grade and last week he had a homework assignment that had to be completed on a computer. What, your kid doesn't have their own computer at home? Tough luck! We're also already into 'projects' - more hours of work, more resources to buy. "oh you can do it with stuff around the house" (no you can't)…

> What, your kid doesn't have their own computer at home? Tough luck!

Then it should be provided to the kids by the school. My girlfriend works at a poor school where a lot of the students don't even speak english and they provide laptops to all the kids whose parents cannot afford one.

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