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Depressed People See the World More Realistically (2017)

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Re: Depressed People See the World More Realistically (2017)

#111
post #98
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use their model of reality all the time when arranging things in my house. Like Newton's formulae it works well in certain contexts, even though Einstein proved Newton wrong.

This is a bad analogy that makes it sound like you're defending flat-earthers. It's like saying you use Hermeticism's Principle of Rhythm to build a pendulum-powered clock... And unlike both Flat-Earth theory and Hermetics, Newton was actually demonstrably right . Flat-earthers and Hermeticists spin their theories out of whole cloth.

The shape of the Earth is just a model [1] - an approximation. All models have margins of error. All models are wrong, some are useful [2]. The map is not the territory [3]. All scientific models are scale variant [4] e.g contextual.

Scientific models are pragmatic at best. Useful for a particular purpose within some domain of applicability

When last did you take the curvature of the Earth into account when arranging your furniture?

Of course, you can always dismiss my perspective as "Just another nihilistic, depressed anti-realist"

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-dependent_realism

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_models_are_wrong

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80%93territory_relation

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_invariance

Re: Depressed People See the World More Realistically (2017)

#112
To the degree to which we interact with the world and create our own reality.

It's lower effort to turn a pessimistic outlook into reality than it is to turn an optimistic outlook into reality.

I've been ready the Wayside School books to my daughter for bedtime recently, the character Kathy demonstrates this pretty well.

From https://wayside-school.fandom.com/wiki/Kathy_(book_chapter) :

"The chapter opens by mentioning that Kathy doesn't like you, and that you are the stupidest person she doesn't know. She also thinks you are the ugliest person she doesn't know, and she doesn't know a lot of people. Even the people she does know she doesn't like. She thinks D.J. smiles too much and hates John because he can't stand on his head.

After the introduction, the chapter talks about a time Kathy had a pet cat named Skunks. She was afraid he would run away, but Mrs. Jewls told her that he would stay as long as Kathy took good care of him, and remembered to give him plenty of food and water. However, Kathy thought Mrs. Jewls was wrong, and to keep Skunks around, locked him in a closet, sometimes even forgetting to take care of him. One day when Kathy was looking for her other shoe, Skunks ran out and never came back. Kathy bragged to Mrs. Jewls, claiming that she was right all along, and tells her that next time she gets a cat, she'll kill him so he never runs away.

Afterwards it talks about a time Dameon was trying to teach Kathy how to play catch. Kathy complains that she'll just get hurt, but Dameon states that as long as she keeps her eyes on the ball, everything will be okay. However, worrying that she'll be hurt in advance, she closes her eyes and the ball lands in her face. She claims that Dameon was wrong and she was right as she runs away sobbing.

Allison thinks that if she is nice to Kathy, Kathy might be nice to her in return, so she bakes her a cookie. Kathy however, thinks it will taste terrible because Allison made it, so she keeps the cookie in her desk. Three weeks later, she decides to eat the cookie, which is now stale and dusty, and as expected, hates it. Kathy says that she was right about Allison's cookie, then the chapter cuts back to narration, explaining that Kathy thought she had very good reasons for hating everyone in Mrs. Jewls's class, alongside a very good reason for hating you. She knows that if you met her, you would hate her too, and already knows she's right. The chapter ends by saying it's weird how someone can always be right and still be wrong."

Re: Depressed People See the World More Realistically (2017)

#113

I'm not so depressed these days (thankfully) but this "realism" does tend to manifest is different ways. I'm very self-conscious about not dragging people down because some thoughts that I think daily that are normal for me, seem to be absolutely psychologically crippling for people who previously hadn't, or didn't want to think such things. Usually when I do express these thoughts they're in the form of semi-dark hu…

I feel like I relate.

> So I try to keep this "depressive realism" to myself most of the time.

Do you ever start to feel alone, isolated, and mis- or not understood too?

Re: Depressed People See the World More Realistically (2017)

#114

My therapist said to me once: "I really like pessimistic patients a lot more than overly optimistic ones. A depressed, pessimistic person is judging the world very accurately and is not crushed by a negative outcome, as they have already thought about exactly that. They might even completely circumvent the negative outcome, because they thought about every possibility beforehand. Optimists on the other hand can be cr…

My (very personal) differentiation of pessimism and depression - pessimism is focusing on anticipating potential negatives (what you described) and depression - is where one would get into the endless loop thinking over particular set of negative outcomes. First one can be practical, although tough. Second one is just harmfull, sorta like personal mini-hell. Would not wish it to even my enemies to get in such state ever.

Re: Depressed People See the World More Realistically (2017)

#115

I'm not so depressed these days (thankfully) but this "realism" does tend to manifest is different ways. I'm very self-conscious about not dragging people down because some thoughts that I think daily that are normal for me, seem to be absolutely psychologically crippling for people who previously hadn't, or didn't want to think such things. Usually when I do express these thoughts they're in the form of semi-dark hu…

There are things that just aren't worth thinking about and people don't appreciate reminders.

Re: Depressed People See the World More Realistically (2017)

#116

I used to feel this way, then I discovered meditation and now I am almost always in a positive state of mind. In my experience, it is depressed people who are not seeing realistically, and they are caught in cycles of mental delusion. Happiness achieved in this way is just about truly accepting the "depressing" realities and being okay with it all including your own depressing reactions to the realities, and then not…

You can practice mindfulness and meditate daily and still be depressed about the state of the world you live in. You can recognize negative experiences, embrace them, and still feel empty afterwards. You can see yourself as a bristle on the brushstroke of the universe and still feel insignificant. You can see that life is just a game and not want to play.

In a world with 7 billion people all playing their own game, there's bound to be some people who don't want to play. Calling their game "delusional" is hilarious because reality is an abstraction. Saying you can "control" your thoughts is also ridiculous. You can't control your thoughts, Buddhism, Taoism, etc will tell you that. Your thoughts are you. You can only change how you react to them. No matter how many Alan Watts books people read, acid trips they take, hours they spend meditating, etc some people aren't going to think the game is worth playing. That's okay. No amount of telling them to go to the gym, eat better, and meditate is ever going to change their game.

Re: Depressed People See the World More Realistically (2017)

#117
post #96

I see this as sort of the main riddle (or catch-22 if you're the pessimistic type) of life. The semi-unrealistic hope of optimism is what motivates us to get things done. For the HN crowd, consider startup founders. The vast majority of startups fail, yet virtually all founders go into it overestimating their chances of success. After all, if they were realistic about their chances, they'd find the whole business too…

Most startup founders are rich, they are just gambling with some money they have. Akin to a salaried worker gambling a small amount of their salary in a night at the casino.

Do you have any references for most startup founders being rich? Qualitatively this does not align with my experiences at all with almost any founder of a company I’ve ever met. Almost all of them risked everything.

Re: Depressed People See the World More Realistically (2017)

#118

In other words: water is still wet. The world is a shitty place, deal with it.

I'm a (depressed) realist, not a pessimist. I think the world CAN be better, though I realize that is incredibly unlikely unless enough people WANT to make it a better place and WORK to make it so.

I would much rather see the world more or less as it is than delude myself by ignoring the many real and growing problems in the world.

Re: Depressed People See the World More Realistically (2017)

#119

I'm not so depressed these days (thankfully) but this "realism" does tend to manifest is different ways. I'm very self-conscious about not dragging people down because some thoughts that I think daily that are normal for me, seem to be absolutely psychologically crippling for people who previously hadn't, or didn't want to think such things. Usually when I do express these thoughts they're in the form of semi-dark hu…

The other day someone was remarking how quickly one's luck can change (for the better). I don't disagree but for whatever reason my response was, "yah, life is full of ups and downs, the trick is to die on one of the upticks". I thought it was hilarious. They thought I was morbid and cynical. Go figure!

Re: Depressed People See the World More Realistically (2017)

#120
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it fair to acknowledge all of the worlds atrocities and then dismiss them so you can be happy?

You don't dismiss things in the world, you dismiss unhelpful patterns of thinking, and cultivate helpful patterns.

It can be more helpful to the world around you even if it is less helpful for yourself to not dismiss these patterns of thinking.
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