California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am • Hacker News Board

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#171

Post by yellowapple » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:04 AM UTC

Hermitian909 wrote: post #48

meristem wrote: post #34

Unfortunately, the school systems still rely on one parent at home. It is not just drop off and pick up times: school activities, parent-teacher conferences, etc. For example, in the SF Unified District, school tours for parents of kids entering kindergarten, middle school and high school are during the school hours, mostly in the morning. It is all built around the expectation of a parent at home or a job structure…

I can tell you that, through most of the bay area at least, those policies are mostly about intentional socioeconomic segregation. My family has deep ties to local education infrastructure and its well known that most of the advocates for these policies are trying to keep poor kids out of their schools. While they don't say it in public forums they're generally more than happy to tell you in private.

Reminds me of how my high school's borders (for which neighborhoods would be assigned to that high school) just so happened to only include affluent (or rural, in my case) areas and excluded less-affluent areas (instead of basing it purely on distance). It was a new school, too (it and the adjoining middle school opened for my 8th grade year), so of course it got all the nice stuff while the kids in poorer neighborhoods had to make do with older stuff in older buildings (and/or portables).

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#172

Post by cloverich » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:05 AM UTC

asteli wrote: post #79

ACow_Adonis wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who lives in a country where schools all uniformly started at 9:00 am (i'm probably wrong on that, but lets just go with it), what's the social-background/theoretical reason for starting the school day at 7:00am? From the outside that just seems absolutely bonkers?

Not knowing the real reason, I suspect it's so that parents can drive their children to school before starting their commutes to work. What proportion of kids do you reckon walk/bike/transit to school in your country?

The part about this logic that confuses me is starting early enough to early morning commutes (7ish) puts kids out of school long before parents are home (2-3ish). I remember briefly running with a crowd's whose daily ritual was, after being dismissed at I think 2:40, was to go home and smoke pot for a few hours before everyone's parents were home. Unless kids are in school for 9+ hours, I don't see how parental commute is a reasonable argument. Similarly, there's no reason there couldn't be early classes for kids who absolutely couldn't get to school otherwise.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#173

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:07 AM UTC

_coveredInBees wrote: post #134

meristem wrote: post #34

Unfortunately, the school systems still rely on one parent at home. It is not just drop off and pick up times: school activities, parent-teacher conferences, etc. For example, in the SF Unified District, school tours for parents of kids entering kindergarten, middle school and high school are during the school hours, mostly in the morning. It is all built around the expectation of a parent at home or a job structure…

I understand the frustration, but I think it is absurd to expect teachers and school administrators (who are woefully underpaid, especially in the Bay area) to accommodate working parents by working extra hours just for the parent's benefit. It's a hard enough job as it is, what with the poor pay, large workload, dealing with entitled, helicopter parents and the diminishing societal appreciation for their contributio…

[deleted]

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#174

Post by kaitai » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:07 AM UTC

ACow_Adonis wrote: post #49

socalnate1 wrote: post #3

My high school started at 7am. I also took the bus; which picked up around 6:15am; so I usually woke up around 5:45am during the week. I would often nod off during my first or second period; and routinely took 2-3 hour naps when I got home from school; which screwed up my ability to fall asleep early at night or get much homework done. I sometimes wonder what my academics would have been like if I was actually awake…

As someone who lives in a country where schools all uniformly started at 9:00 am (i'm probably wrong on that, but lets just go with it), what's the social-background/theoretical reason for starting the school day at 7:00am? From the outside that just seems absolutely bonkers?

Yep, like lonelappde says, it's so the buses can do

* an hour-long route for high schoolers (6:30-7:30) then * 45 minutes for junior high (7:45-8:30) * potentially a last route for elementary (8:30-9)

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#175

Post by brodie » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:08 AM UTC

selectodude wrote: post #133

ThomPete wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont know what you mean with better, my two sons are top performers in their school and the school network is top 3% performing in NY state. They are in school at 7:45 latest each morning. There are many benefits to getting an early start in the morning as ling as you have had a long nights sleep. So i would like to see the base if those studies as they dont reflect the reality and statistics i know of. Edit to tho…

Getting out of bed before ten no matter when I went to sleep was a mortal struggle until I was probably 25. Now I’m gassed by 11 and up by 6. The research has shown that circadian rhythms change with age.

I've noticed the same thing. In my twenties waking up before ten was extremely difficult and made getting into work stressful every morning. But now in my thirties I find myself awake when the sun rises without issue.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#176

Post by algaeontoast » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:09 AM UTC

Hermitian909 wrote: post #48

meristem wrote: post #34

Unfortunately, the school systems still rely on one parent at home. It is not just drop off and pick up times: school activities, parent-teacher conferences, etc. For example, in the SF Unified District, school tours for parents of kids entering kindergarten, middle school and high school are during the school hours, mostly in the morning. It is all built around the expectation of a parent at home or a job structure…

I can tell you that, through most of the bay area at least, those policies are mostly about intentional socioeconomic segregation. My family has deep ties to local education infrastructure and its well known that most of the advocates for these policies are trying to keep poor kids out of their schools. While they don't say it in public forums they're generally more than happy to tell you in private.

The same could be said about the Bay Area in general...

A place where affluent Palo Alto teens made fun of me (an adult) for driving a “2012 VW”...

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#177

Post by yellowapple » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:09 AM UTC

georgeburdell wrote: post #164

Hermitian909 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the following is a true story: In a district in the bay area, one of the elementary schools was given a certain special designation that allowed them to accept kids from the district by lottery. The condition of entering the lottery was as follows: 1. A parent must take a 2 hour tour of the school, tour times were between 9 am and 3 pm. 2. A parent must sign an agreement to volunteer at the school at least 3 days…

Sounds like an elementary school in my Bay Area district. Lottery admissions. Parents are required to volunteer ~10 hours per year and pay for uniforms. The school is 90% Asian even though Asians make up 1/3 of the city. Another one that's more art focused and requires 4 hours of volunteering PER WEEK is majority white even though whites are 1/3 of the population.

> and pay for uniforms

It's bad enough that the school enforces a school uniform in the first place, let alone has the nerve to make parents pay for it.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#178

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:13 AM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #148

_coveredInBees wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refuting the results of scientific studies with anecdotal evidence is not going to win any arguments. Surely you must understand how these scientific studies work?

Its not anectdotal and i would urge you to point to the scientific studies so we can debate their methodology and “scientific” base. I’m too old to just take these kind of studies as science without looking at the details. Now you dont have to take my examples for more than they are but they sure contradict the claims being made in this thread and onna state level.

[deleted]

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#179

Post by sjg007 » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:13 AM UTC

topkai22 wrote: post #138

skissane wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a non-American I find this interesting, that school start times would be decided based on availability of buses. Here in Australia, most schools don't own their own buses (I see a few expensive private schools do). Buses are provided by private bus companies and/or by a government-owned bus company (depending on who provides regular non-school bus services in the area). The bus fare is either paid by the student's…

School bussing in the United States has an incredibly complex legal history related to desegration and civil rights. Moving to a fee for use system is probably legally impossible(or at least very difficult) in most of the United States. There are also reasonably strong public sector unions representing school bus drivers, who in many areas have gotten various job requirements codified that make outsourcing difficult.…

No buses in California or NYC for the most part kids take public transportation.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#180

Post by baroffoos » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:14 AM UTC

asteli wrote: post #79

ACow_Adonis wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who lives in a country where schools all uniformly started at 9:00 am (i'm probably wrong on that, but lets just go with it), what's the social-background/theoretical reason for starting the school day at 7:00am? From the outside that just seems absolutely bonkers?

Not knowing the real reason, I suspect it's so that parents can drive their children to school before starting their commutes to work. What proportion of kids do you reckon walk/bike/transit to school in your country?

Another perspective from Australia. When I was in high school virtually everyone took the bus to school except a few of the yr 12s who could drive themselves. The only problem was the nearest bus stop was an hours walk away from my house so I still had to get driven to the bus stop.