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California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

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Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#101

Post by eftychis »

non-entity wrote: post #5
socalnate1 wrote: post #3

My high school started at 7am. I also took the bus; which picked up around 6:15am; so I usually woke up around 5:45am during the week. I would often nod off during my first or second period; and routinely took 2-3 hour naps when I got home from school; which screwed up my ability to fall asleep early at night or get much homework done. I sometimes wonder what my academics would have been like if I was actually awake…

I've always been confused by TV shows showing kids leaving for school and it's bright outside with the whole family awake. Growing up, it was dark when we got up for school and just barely sun up (depending on the season still dark) by the time we left to get on the bus.

I have to say that is not productive, especially as a teenager, or old child, where sleep patterns shift to a "late-night-owl" more, and extra sleep beyond 7-8 hours is critical.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#102

Post by drak0n1c »

carapace wrote: post #66

All this commotion around what time to begin soul-crushing conformity factory amuses me grimly. Studies show children are slightly less psychologically crippled for life if you let them sleep in for an hour before putting them in the electric Skinner Box. Terrific.

Charter schools and home schooling are viable alternatives, and if done well they have decent results as far as college admissions and career opportunities go.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#103

Post by 35787 »

whymsicalburito wrote: post #96
35787 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true for me. Public schools are so horrible that it drives me insane just to think about it. And people brush it off because of some vague notion that there’s no other choice. Look at billy eilish. She’s fantastic and very successful and she was homeschooled. Palmer luckey who founded oculus and is now worth something like 500 million dollars, homeschooled. “I can’t afford homeschooling. I have never even tri…

Of course there are exceptions, but most homeschooled people I've met have displayed some sort of social deficiency. I wouldn't support a blanket statement that the solution is more home schooling.

Most homeschooled kids probably fall into religious zealot parent group or homeschooled because of obvious deficiencies displayed early on group. There is no intrinsic quality of homeschooling that makes kids deficient in any area. There is no reason why you can’t sign your kid up for little league and have him hanging out with other kids and adults. I’m just not convinced. And it wouldn’t matter anyway because literally anything is better than public school. If I have kids I will be forced to homeschool them.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#104

Post by epmaybe »

joshvm wrote: post #100
epmaybe wrote: post #95

I'm extremely oblivious to what the benefits to starting later are, and how stable the benefits will be over time. Anyone care to explain? I'm particularly concerned that this will incentivize students to just stay up later, negating many benefits of increased sleep.

The benefits are sleep, as the article says. I would guess this outweighs the risk that a few students use the opportunity to stay up longer. (although pre 8am seems excessively early to me - we started around 8:50) > I'm particularly concerned that this will incentivize students to just stay up later, negating many benefits of increased sleep. This is missing the point. Teenagers staying up late is often interpreted…

I'm familiar with delayed sleep phase syndrome, is that what you are referring to? You state that it's a symptom of abnormal circadian rhythm, which as far as I know is greatly affected by light exposure. If students are awake later, using their phones/computers, won't that negatively affect their socially acceptable circadian rhythm? I agree that staying up late shouldn't be considered being lazy or disobedient, but I'm having trouble understanding your point. Maybe you could elaborate on your point regarding the circadian rhythm?

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#105

Post by epmaybe »

mLuby wrote: post #99
epmaybe wrote: post #95

I'm extremely oblivious to what the benefits to starting later are, and how stable the benefits will be over time. Anyone care to explain? I'm particularly concerned that this will incentivize students to just stay up later, negating many benefits of increased sleep.

That assumes sleep(2100, 0500) == sleep(2300, 0700), which anecdataly is false.

Could you elaborate? I think you mean that there are benefits to waking up later due to the effect light has on circadian rhythm, but I don't want to assume.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#106

Post by guelo »

malandrew wrote: post #81
standardUser wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes they do. Under this law, extracurricular and voluntary "early bird" classes are still allowed before 8am.

Typically they don't until they are forced to by an adversarial process. Compare AB5 in its original form versus what was eventually passed. The number of professional groups that stepped in and pushed for exceptions for their trade is a testament to how poorly the original authors of AB5 did thinking about the edge cases. By the time it passed, it was largely exceptions.

So the legislative process worked, cool.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#108

Post by unqueued »

socalnate1 wrote: post #3

My high school started at 7am. I also took the bus; which picked up around 6:15am; so I usually woke up around 5:45am during the week. I would often nod off during my first or second period; and routinely took 2-3 hour naps when I got home from school; which screwed up my ability to fall asleep early at night or get much homework done. I sometimes wonder what my academics would have been like if I was actually awake…

I had similar experiences. I and many other students would sleep in our winter coats on the morning bus ride, and it was hard to focus until about 10AM.

I strongly suspect that school hours are based around parents work hours, even if that is not what they say.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#109

Post by ACow_Adonis »

asteli wrote: post #79
ACow_Adonis wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who lives in a country where schools all uniformly started at 9:00 am (i'm probably wrong on that, but lets just go with it), what's the social-background/theoretical reason for starting the school day at 7:00am? From the outside that just seems absolutely bonkers?

Not knowing the real reason, I suspect it's so that parents can drive their children to school before starting their commutes to work. What proportion of kids do you reckon walk/bike/transit to school in your country?

Honestly (Aus), relatively few. Drop-offs would traditionally be from about 8:00 am onwards (so kids had up to an hour before hand waiting for classes to start). Not everyone arrived from 8:00, but getting there well before that was exceptional.

We don't generally have "dedicated" buses for school, though there are some schools that have dedicated routes at certain times of the days usually contracted out to bus companies, otherwise its on the parents or the public transport system to get children to and from schools.

When I was younger (sub-12 years old, both parents working), parents dropped me off on the way to work, then we had a kind of neighbourhood arrangement with other parents at the school where we'd be picked up by them (car-pooling i guess) and go and spend the afternoon at their place before my parents picked us up from their place on the way home.

For high-schoolers, its a bit "well, they're capable of getting themselves to and from school by now...", with obvious exceptions if you live out in the sticks or miles away from the school (then the question would be, why are you going to that school without a way to get there?) and no real stigma to it if you can sync up with parents or after-school activities.

You know, i'm much older now, so its possible I'm out of touch, but I doubt I'm THAT out of touch to make a 7:00 starting time seem vaguely sane...

Edit: I've looked into it and I'm not that out of touch. State recommendations where I live are from 8:30 onwards, with most starting at 9:00.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#110

Post by colordrops »

theptip wrote: post #71
colordrops wrote: post #70

The implied assumption in all this discussion is that everyone stays up late so 7am doesn't work. Perhaps the question should be why society is so geared for waking hours shifted partly into the night. Perhaps people should wake with the sun and sleep soon after dark. But so much entertainment is scheduled during the evening, and everyone is so deeply entrenched in their habits.

I don't think that is the implied assumption; the stated reason for this change, FTA: > The American Academy of Pediatrics, which backed the bill, said in 2014 policy statement that getting too little sleep puts teenagers’ physical and mental health at risk, as well as their academic performance. The organization cited research that shows that biological changes in puberty make it difficult for the average teenager t…

Did they give a cause as to why it's hard for them to sleep before 11pm? That doesn't contradict what I said in the slightest.
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