Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ohio Was Set to Purge 235,000 Voters. It Was Wrong About 20%

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 244 posts

Re: Ohio Was Set to Purge 235,000 Voters. It Was Wrong About 20%

#221

Post by will4274 »

crooked-v wrote: post #199
will4274 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty bad take. The other half the story is that the Dems object to every cleanup and always claim the Republicans are trying to suppress votes, but never have any suggestions on how to do it better, only "don't do it now" or "do it after the next election" in perpetuity. That's how blue states like Michigan end up with court orders requiring them to do cleanups (court orders which Michigan is violating).

> blue states like Michigan Both houses of Michigan's state legislature have been Republican-controlled since 2011. Not much of an example of the Dems controlling voter rolls at the state level there.

Well, my example pre-dates 2011, but that's hardly the point. The point is that Democrats object to legally mandated purging and cry foul regardless of whether or not the purging is fair. The Republicans sometimes deserve to look like the bad guys, but sometimes, they are just doing the proper legally mandated thing and get called the bad guys anyways.

Re: Ohio Was Set to Purge 235,000 Voters. It Was Wrong About 20%

#222

Post by romwell »

crispyambulance wrote: post #213
romwell wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "citizen ID" cards We call them passports :)

Those are halfway there. The problem is they're out-of-reach financially to many people ($145~) and they can't be used with a database to determine the person's local residence. I am thinking of something akin to the Chinese Resident Identity Card, which does track enough info to determine voter eligibility, I think.

I mean, the cost is not inherent to the ID itself: a piece of paper doesn't have to cost anything.

We also have passport cards, which is the credit-card sized version of the passport, and only works for travel to Mexico/Canada (but is still a national ID).

>they can't be used with a database to determine the person's local residence.

You know, I can Google my name and get my current address out of public databases (TruePeopleSearch, etc).

I can also see my current address on the voter record from the website by entering the VoterID number.

The passports have numbers. These can be used to pull/check the address from a voter record database. It's less than trivial.

The address itself doesn't have to be on the ID.

TL;DR: issue passport cards for free to all citizens, force the states to let anyone with such a card to vote with a federal law.

Re: Ohio Was Set to Purge 235,000 Voters. It Was Wrong About 20%

#223

Post by CompanionCuuube »

ebiester wrote: post #219
CompanionCuuube wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So long as it isn't used to disenfranchise people from a single vote, there's no problem. And you believe it's the Republicans who are hating on immigration enforcement? The proposal for tracking everyone's residence not going to fly(coincidentally another thing you need id to do) with those people.

Immigration enforcement is easy. Jail every CEO and executive team that hires undocumented immigrants, and fine the company or individual $100 per hour of work from undocumented labor. If you have a threat of jail time or bankruptcy, you won't hire undocumented workers. If you are a farmer who uses undocumented workers, same thing. Put the onus on wealthy citizens for doing the wrong thing and have real consequences.…

So assume a spherical cow and immigration enforcement is "easy".

Don't let that get in the way of actually responding to the objection regarding tracking of the residents of the US. But tell us how you really feel.

Re: Ohio Was Set to Purge 235,000 Voters. It Was Wrong About 20%

#224

Post by 9HZZRfNlpR »

ebiester wrote: post #192
CompanionCuuube wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (in Germany we track you place of residence basically from birth, it's used not just for voting but also for determining where your taxes go, for government communication, to make sure nobody skips out on bills by moving, etc). If we tried to institute that kind of system, the political party which currently is all against voter id would be up in arms too.

So long as it isn't used to disenfranchise people from a single vote, there's no problem. Now, things get complicated and we would have to do work to get it right in that we have inconsistent rules on residency in terms of students and temporary housing, and we have a significant number of people who don't want to see a national registry of citizens (see issues with using SSN as a national ID) but there's nothing spe…

In Germany and Europe (UK is outliner) you pay a fee for ID card, but it's valid for 10 years or so and cost is around 20-30 euro. Really don't understand what's the panic about in America, you don't have to do and pay it every year.

Re: Ohio Was Set to Purge 235,000 Voters. It Was Wrong About 20%

#225

Post by 9HZZRfNlpR »

weberc2 wrote: post #217
jandrese wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This wouldn't solve the problem of too many inner city residents voting and messing up your legislative majority. In-person fraudulent voting is one of those problems that basically doesn't exist. People have looked for cases of it happening and have come up empty handed. Attempting to solve that problem is a waste of time. The only point of these laws is to suppress voting blocks.

> This wouldn't solve the problem of too many inner city residents voting and messing up your legislative majority. I'm not a Republican, and I'm not advocating for a legislative majority for any party. You're not participating in good faith. > In-person fraudulent voting is one of those problems that basically doesn't exist. People have looked for cases of it happening and have come up empty handed. Attempting to so…

ID costs here in Europe too, but it's valid 8 or 10 years so it's not a huge problem.

Someone is posting this link about one dmv being opened only 4 days a year for some reason but the population of that place is ca 3000 people. In Europe you don't have a dmv in a village and you get it done after every ten years at some bigger city or town.

Re: Ohio Was Set to Purge 235,000 Voters. It Was Wrong About 20%

#226

Post by zucker42 »

weberc2 wrote: post #218
crooked-v wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's the statistic for adults with any kind of government issued identification? Surely that's more relevant for this debate than the driver's license statistic? A factor to keep in mind here is that it's an established tactic for Republicans to specifically allow alternative IDs used by whites for voting purposes, while banning alternative IDs used by blacks for voting purposes. A North Carolina law was struck d…

Sure. Let's strike that shit down. Make sure ID requirements are even across the board. Seems like a pretty tractable problem.

Designing a system where people in power take actions that cause them to be less likely to remain in power is probably one of the most intractable problems in political science. It's why the U.S. has first past the post, why gerrymandering is a problem, and why voter ID laws are racist.

Re: Ohio Was Set to Purge 235,000 Voters. It Was Wrong About 20%

#227

Post by 9HZZRfNlpR »

crooked-v wrote: post #177
neonIcon wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure where you live but in the U.S. flying without an ID of some sort is impossible, and an accepted ID other than a drivers license all have an arguably larger barrier to entry than going to the DMV and paying the ~$10 and an hour+ of your time. That or you are someone with an inordinate amount of resources available to you and are looking at this problem through rose colored glasses.

Consider places like the town where the DMV is only open four days per year, and the closest alternative is 20 miles away and only open two days per week. https://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2016/feb/19/... There are a lot of people for whom the 'small' barrier to entry of dealing with state bureaucracy is much larger than it is in your world.

The population of that place is ca 3000 people. In Europe you don't have a dmv in a village and you get it done after every ten years at some bigger city or town. And yes it costs a bit too.

Re: Ohio Was Set to Purge 235,000 Voters. It Was Wrong About 20%

#228

Post by jimmywanger »

crooked-v wrote: post #191
jimmywanger wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When 'some' is enough to control a state legislature, and similar things happen across the country ( https://www.npr.org/2018/10/23/659784277/republican-voter-su... ), it's a logical conclusion. I don't see how it follows that a state legislature's cupidity directly translates to a national party's intentions. That's a bridge too far. If there's a smoking gun, such as a leaked internal memo, I would agree totally.…

> If there's a smoking gun, such as a leaked internal memo, I would agree totally. What about a variety of direct quotes from the heads of different state Republican parties? https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/some-republicans-ackno... >Yes, for closing the polls early, not for voter id laws. The judgment is on a law that affects both.

> What about a variety of direct quotes from the heads of different state Republican parties? https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/some-republicans-ackno....

That shows no evidence that they are willing to make their views public or that they are shared by republicans on a national level. There is absolutely no evidence for that. > The judgment is on a law that affects both.

That is not in evidence. The article you cited did not link the court decision mentioned. The court decision is only speaking to the decision to close polling spots on Sunday because it will suppress black, and majority Democratic voters.

Re: Ohio Was Set to Purge 235,000 Voters. It Was Wrong About 20%

#229

Post by weberc2 »

9HZZRfNlpR wrote: post #225
weberc2 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This wouldn't solve the problem of too many inner city residents voting and messing up your legislative majority. I'm not a Republican, and I'm not advocating for a legislative majority for any party. You're not participating in good faith. > In-person fraudulent voting is one of those problems that basically doesn't exist. People have looked for cases of it happening and have come up empty handed. Attempting to so…

ID costs here in Europe too, but it's valid 8 or 10 years so it's not a huge problem. Someone is posting this link about one dmv being opened only 4 days a year for some reason but the population of that place is ca 3000 people. In Europe you don't have a dmv in a village and you get it done after every ten years at some bigger city or town.

Right. These are simple, tractable problems, and there are successful models the world over. That people fight so adamantly against something as straightforward as voter ID indicates ulterior motives.

Re: Ohio Was Set to Purge 235,000 Voters. It Was Wrong About 20%

#230

Post by crispyambulance »

romwell wrote: post #222
crispyambulance wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are halfway there. The problem is they're out-of-reach financially to many people ($145~) and they can't be used with a database to determine the person's local residence. I am thinking of something akin to the Chinese Resident Identity Card, which does track enough info to determine voter eligibility, I think.

I mean, the cost is not inherent to the ID itself: a piece of paper doesn't have to cost anything. We also have passport cards, which is the credit-card sized version of the passport, and only works for travel to Mexico/Canada (but is still a national ID). >they can't be used with a database to determine the person's local residence. You know, I can Google my name and get my current address out of public databases (T…

> It's less than trivial.

It's doable, but it's certainly not trivial. And no, it's not just "a slip of paper" it's far more than that when you consider all the human, bureaucratic and technical infrastructure, systems and support that would have to be behind it.

Sure, there are trashy and unreliable online aggregators like mylife and their ilk that can provide all kinds of dubious info. I am talking about something much more rigorous and reliable.

There are steps in the right direction occuring now (like Real ID) but even these half-measures have been years in the making and have years to go.

Post reply on HN