5G Mobile Networks: A Systems Approach • Hacker News Board

Re: 5G Mobile Networks: A Systems Approach

#81

Post by Nokinside » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 6:06 PM UTC

missosoup wrote: post #58

Nokinside wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know how the wavelengths penetrate into the body and how much power goes into the skin. In new 60 Ghz 5G wavelengths skin reflects 20-30% of the power and the rest is almost completely absorbed by the epidermis. Overall the power densities are so slow that there is no reason to except anything. Exposing skin to the sun is known radiation hazard. If you go outside during daytime why worry about 5G?

> skin reflects 20-30% of the power and the rest is almost completely absorbed by the epidermis. So 70% of the energy is absorbed by the skin. What does that much energy at those freqs do to the epidermis? I don't know, you don't know. I'm not saying you're making a case for the conspiracy theories, but you're certainly not making one against them. > If you go outside during daytime why worry about 5G? If you go outs…

> What does that much energy at those freqs do to the epidermis

It's mostly dead cells, so not much.

Re: 5G Mobile Networks: A Systems Approach

#82

Post by GhettoMaestro » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 6:22 PM UTC

tboyd47 wrote: post #48

mytailorisrich wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mmwave range is only one of the 5G ranges. 5G will also use the same ranges as 3G and 4G. In the mmwave range transmitters will not have to transmit higher power levels. First because the use-case for this range is when there is NO obstacles to go through (it does not really work otherwise...), in short distance situations, and then also because beam forming will always be used. > especially when the benefits of…

> the use-case for this range is when there is NO obstacles to go through (it does not really work otherwise...) So, on the one hand, 5G is going to make unicorns fly down and carry us to the heavens on wings of pure data, and on the other hand, it can't go through walls...? Research shows that two thirds of consumers are not willing to pay even $1 more for 5G internet. [0] Regardless of the promises companies are ma…

> So, on the one hand, 5G is going to make unicorns fly down and carry us to the heavens on wings of pure data, and on the other hand, it can't go through walls...?

This fact has nothing to do with 5G. It is physics. A high-frequency carrier is not able to penetrate objects as well as it does with a lower frequency.

Re: 5G Mobile Networks: A Systems Approach

#83

Post by GhettoMaestro » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 6:24 PM UTC

tboyd47 wrote: post #65

mytailorisrich wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most data are consumed indoor anyway, so mmwave will likely be used through indoor micro cells. mmwave also allows to boost capacity. As already written in my previous comment, 5G is not just about faster internet. Other use-cases are as important, if not more. Operators know they can't charge consumers extra.

Right, so far we've learned: 1) 5G improves wireless internet - though it only works over short-range and can't go through walls. 2) 5G needs a massive deployment of new devices to reach consumers - though most consumers are not willing to pay even $1 more for 5G. 3) 5G is a prerequisite for amazing new tech like IoT and self-driving cars - many of which already exist and will continue to use existing 3G and 4G bands…

You're obsessed with "5G can't go through walls". This is a meme and does a dis-service to your knowledge.

5G reuses existing 3G and 4G frequencies, but with better rf management (among other things). The mmwave frequencies are to address mass-crowd scenarios, which currently today already cause 4G DAS deployments to almost burst at the seams.

These are not "my" opinions. These are the current state of affairs re RF management and planning.

Re: 5G Mobile Networks: A Systems Approach

#84

Post by grahamburger » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 6:27 PM UTC

0x445442 wrote: post #74

Is there any hope of 5G providing internet service comparable to my current broadband offering? Competition for my home internet would be nice.

That's exactly why companies are investing in 5G. There's not much benefit for consumers unless they can get you to cancel your cable and use them instead.

Re: 5G Mobile Networks: A Systems Approach

#85

Post by 0xDEEPFAC » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 6:35 PM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #56

tboyd47 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the use-case for this range is when there is NO obstacles to go through (it does not really work otherwise...) So, on the one hand, 5G is going to make unicorns fly down and carry us to the heavens on wings of pure data, and on the other hand, it can't go through walls...? Research shows that two thirds of consumers are not willing to pay even $1 more for 5G internet. [0] Regardless of the promises companies are ma…

You've never been in an expo hall with 10k people all trying to post an instagram photo, have you?

So the solution is the radiate the entire group of people for instagram?

Re: 5G Mobile Networks: A Systems Approach

#86

Post by ewzimm » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 6:39 PM UTC

ewzimm wrote: post #32

l0000p wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, a statement like that, has just as much value as the conspiracy theory. Since 5G is a vastly different technology, the only thing we can say for certain is that we don't know the health risks at this point.

It's true that we don't have the full picture. Nothing is certain yet, but the most likely health effects will be indirect. Two areas of concern are effects on insect populations, which are already in collapse, and effects on bacterial development, including potentially causing resistance to antibiotics. These studies would be a good place to start if you're interested in more information: https://doi.org/10.1038/s41…

Alternative link for second reference with no paywall: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-35486-1

Re: 5G Mobile Networks: A Systems Approach

#87

Post by ewzimm » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 6:45 PM UTC

pas wrote: post #78

ewzimm wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that we don't have the full picture. Nothing is certain yet, but the most likely health effects will be indirect. Two areas of concern are effects on insect populations, which are already in collapse, and effects on bacterial development, including potentially causing resistance to antibiotics. These studies would be a good place to start if you're interested in more information: https://doi.org/10.1038/s41…

The bactericidal effects study is behind a paywall (but seems to be readable here: https://www.academia.edu/10777146/Bactericidal_effects_of_lo... ) See also: 53GHz has some anti-microbial effects when combined with antibiotics: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/265134435_The_Enhan... Interestingly the antibiotic resistance is only seen in one particular number on a graph, whereas the other numbers show that E…

Thanks for the alert to the paywall and the comments. I had originally read it on Nature and included the reference provided on the article.

The lack of consistency in results is definitely an issue, and it's true that it may be turn out to be a net benefit overall, which is why I believe we still don't have a clear understanding of the situation. Considering that bacteria adapt to their environment, we may see further unpredictable effects. The risk as I see it is not knowing how it may turn out before deploying it on a massive scale.

Re: 5G Mobile Networks: A Systems Approach

#88

Post by TheSoftwareGuy » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 6:58 PM UTC

l0000p wrote: post #16

s_dev wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a tin foil hat thing. It's just wireless frequencies -- which may have some minor impact but it wouldn't be any different to 4G or 3G really and you can see that tech came and hasn't caused any major health issues.

Unfortunately, a statement like that, has just as much value as the conspiracy theory. Since 5G is a vastly different technology, the only thing we can say for certain is that we don't know the health risks at this point.

5G is not a vastly different technology

Re: 5G Mobile Networks: A Systems Approach

#89

Post by navaati » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 7:09 PM UTC

testis321 wrote: post #54

mytailorisrich wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most data are consumed indoor anyway, so mmwave will likely be used through indoor micro cells. mmwave also allows to boost capacity. As already written in my previous comment, 5G is not just about faster internet. Other use-cases are as important, if not more. Operators know they can't charge consumers extra.

This! You can put a mmwave basestation in a factory (a couple of cells near the ceiling) and controll everything (machines, "robots", transporters, forklifts, inventory,...) via LTE.

But why not just use wifi then ?

Re: 5G Mobile Networks: A Systems Approach

#90

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 7:09 PM UTC

missosoup wrote: post #68

mrtnmcc wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microwave ovens are not very narrowband and certainly do not excite 'rotational resonances of water'. The periodic burn marks on your cheese are from coarse standing waves within the microwave oven cavity (related to the magnetron resonance and spacing of the walls).. it has nothing to do with molecular resonances. EDIT: the reason it cooks food is the intensity of the field strength (1 kilowatt per cubic ft, or ~27,…

Please explain the mechanism for the 2.45Mhz microwave oven cooking food and how that rules out the possibility of the 5g band having unintended interactions with molecules found in living organisms. You can settle this debate for the EU and save them a few million bucks worth of studies.

[deleted]