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Building China's Comac C919 airplane involved a lot of hacking, report says

zdnet.com

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Re: Building China's Comac C919 airplane involved a lot of hacking, report says

#21

Post by incompatible »

socialist_coder wrote: post #17
xoa wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a very capitalistic view to think that the only motivation to innovate is the profit motive. But isn't your entire argument self-contradictory with the story? This isn't a case of them developing them same thing and then, say, ignoring being sued over patent infringement or something. This is them just taking it instead. If your argument was right that IP wasn't useful for innovation, then they wouldn't need t…

I think he's trying to say that there could be an argument made for catching China up to the rest of the world, so that they can spend their resources innovating on new things, not just trying to get caught up. It's not hard to see how that would be a net benefit for the world (except of course for the Western IP holders). Please don't think I'm supporting this, just trying to see this side of the argument.

I think we'd be better off with a system that promotes free flow of information, but local production of goods and services. Products shouldn't be available without full specifications and fabrication methods. Web services shouldn't exist without interoperability protocols and source code. I think this would be a hackers' paradise, and this is "Hacker News", after all.

Re: Building China's Comac C919 airplane involved a lot of hacking, report says

#22

Post by ucha »

9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #14

Ah yes, the Comac C919, 8 years late and counting, and brought to you by the company whose sole previous model still has trouble landing on wet runways: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comac_ARJ21

China managed to quite quickly absorb the technology transfer from Alstom/Siemens to build high-speed trains. Now their trains are better than anyone else's and they have more high-speed rails than any other country. They even managed to beat competitors and export their trains to Turkey and Argentina...

I have no doubt their airplane will ultimately be successful.

Re: Building China's Comac C919 airplane involved a lot of hacking, report says

#23

Post by yourbandsucks »

hnaccy wrote: post #10
nicoburns wrote: post #7

I would like to challenge anyone who's immediate response to this is "China are always stealing our intellectual property" to stop, and really consider whether IP laws are providing a net benefit here. Sure they provide an incentive to innovate, but they also actively prevent others from innovating. This technology will now be available to many more people, and can now be built on and developed. It's a very capitalis…

Why should you care about net benefit when you're dealing with a geopolitical rival? Sports teams aren't happy when scored on because the total score went up.

Maybe sports teams are a horrible way to think about it.

Re: Building China's Comac C919 airplane involved a lot of hacking, report says

#24

Post by SkyMarshal »

stupidcar wrote: post #15
nicoburns wrote: post #7

I would like to challenge anyone who's immediate response to this is "China are always stealing our intellectual property" to stop, and really consider whether IP laws are providing a net benefit here. Sure they provide an incentive to innovate, but they also actively prevent others from innovating. This technology will now be available to many more people, and can now be built on and developed. It's a very capitalis…

By "different principles", you presumably mean totally in the service of an autocratic, hegemonistic nation bent on the brutal oppression its own citizens and its rise to become an unchallengeable global power able to curtail the social, political and human rights of anybody, anywhere on Earth, who it deems an enemy?

>... curtail the social, political and human rights of anybody, anywhere on Earth.

FTFY. CCP’s objective here isn’t limited to enemies only.

Re: Building China's Comac C919 airplane involved a lot of hacking, report says

#25

Post by wolco »

ucha wrote: post #22
9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #14

Ah yes, the Comac C919, 8 years late and counting, and brought to you by the company whose sole previous model still has trouble landing on wet runways: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comac_ARJ21

China managed to quite quickly absorb the technology transfer from Alstom/Siemens to build high-speed trains. Now their trains are better than anyone else's and they have more high-speed rails than any other country. They even managed to beat competitors and export their trains to Turkey and Argentina... I have no doubt their airplane will ultimately be successful.

But will China be able to make the next leap on their own? It's one thing to copy but another to come up with the design on the first place.

Re: Building China's Comac C919 airplane involved a lot of hacking, report says

#26

Post by wolco »

socialist_coder wrote: post #17
xoa wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a very capitalistic view to think that the only motivation to innovate is the profit motive. But isn't your entire argument self-contradictory with the story? This isn't a case of them developing them same thing and then, say, ignoring being sued over patent infringement or something. This is them just taking it instead. If your argument was right that IP wasn't useful for innovation, then they wouldn't need t…

I think he's trying to say that there could be an argument made for catching China up to the rest of the world, so that they can spend their resources innovating on new things, not just trying to get caught up. It's not hard to see how that would be a net benefit for the world (except of course for the Western IP holders). Please don't think I'm supporting this, just trying to see this side of the argument.

Like a stronger military?

Re: Building China's Comac C919 airplane involved a lot of hacking, report says

#28

Post by kwizzt »

wolco wrote: post #25
ucha wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China managed to quite quickly absorb the technology transfer from Alstom/Siemens to build high-speed trains. Now their trains are better than anyone else's and they have more high-speed rails than any other country. They even managed to beat competitors and export their trains to Turkey and Argentina... I have no doubt their airplane will ultimately be successful.

But will China be able to make the next leap on their own? It's one thing to copy but another to come up with the design on the first place.

You shouldn't treat China as a single entity. The question should be whether the Chinese people can come up with the design.

Re: Building China's Comac C919 airplane involved a lot of hacking, report says

#29

Post by sithadmin »

wolco wrote: post #25
ucha wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China managed to quite quickly absorb the technology transfer from Alstom/Siemens to build high-speed trains. Now their trains are better than anyone else's and they have more high-speed rails than any other country. They even managed to beat competitors and export their trains to Turkey and Argentina... I have no doubt their airplane will ultimately be successful.

But will China be able to make the next leap on their own? It's one thing to copy but another to come up with the design on the first place.

The Swiss watchmaking industry was once largely focused on producing cheap copies of English and French watches. Today Swiss watchmakers are renowned for quality and innovation.

Re: Building China's Comac C919 airplane involved a lot of hacking, report says

#30

Post by monocasa »

bpodgursky wrote: post #20
monocasa wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard that what was stolen was mainly internal documentation on how the engines comply with the various regulatory frameworks, which were designed around the specific Western families of engines that existed and evolved with them. If that's all true and China was more than capable of building an engine with the same performance and safety as their Western counterparts, but simply wouldn't have been certified due…

Given that China has struggled to produce a jet engine even for _military_ uses, which is in no way hindered by western regulatory frameworks, I think the burden of proof is on your side: https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/chinas-air-force-has-...

I mean, they supposedly stole the full plans for everything related to the F22 and F35, including their engines. So, that doesn't really jive with your idea that it's lack of access to IP there.

What's way more likely given all that is that Chinese companies so contract lots of the commercial engines' components, it's that putting it together and filli g in the gaps in a way that passes cert is the issue. The fighter jets engine components are starting from scratch, and being very very different designs that are much more exotic from a materials science perspective.

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