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Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

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Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#51

Post by morningseagulls »

ralusek wrote: post #8

It's always interesting to see Hayek's words, followed by a timestamp. Similar, although less recent at nearly 25 years ago, is this Peter Thiel video discussing the illusion of multiculturalism in 1996 https://youtu.be/qTPOBEdc7OI?t=722 . The degree to which radically far left ideology is taught in university is one of the most prevalent contributors to the current political schism. America has been primarily libera…

>The modern product of the American university is generally skeptical of anything resembling a meritocracy

A little-known fact about the word "meritocracy"[0] is that it's a recent invention, coined by Baron Young of Dartington[1] in his satirical work[2] outlining how dystopian a society organised as a meritocracy would be.

[0] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/meritocracy

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Young,_Baron_Young_of_...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_of_the_Meritocracy

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#52

Post by Haga »

CM30 wrote: post #48
ralusek wrote: post #8

It's always interesting to see Hayek's words, followed by a timestamp. Similar, although less recent at nearly 25 years ago, is this Peter Thiel video discussing the illusion of multiculturalism in 1996 https://youtu.be/qTPOBEdc7OI?t=722 . The degree to which radically far left ideology is taught in university is one of the most prevalent contributors to the current political schism. America has been primarily libera…

> Most notably, one's racial and gender identity are brought to the foreground as bar none the primary contributors to the outcomes an individual will encounter. Not too far behind is the usual suspect of economic class, where "boomers" and "landlords" are the new bourgeois, and debt-laden millennial college graduate is the proletariat class. Personally, my experience is that a lot of these individuals outright dismi…

"The idea is pure" fallacy. Please provide a better version of your idea, that contains mechanisms to prevent a failure repetition. Please refrain from insulting people and conspiracy theories, unless you provide evidence of a exploitable bug in people or systemic exploit used by societys more abstract creatures. Have a pleasant day, sir.

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#53

Post by EGreg »

logimame wrote: post #35
EGreg wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is called by many “postmodernism” and it is found on the right and on the left - though far more on the left. Foucalt was a big proponent. He rejected the label but others ran with it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism

No, postmodernism is not identity politics. This video explains this very well: https://youtu.be/26fIBA7O5Ag Although postmodernism isn’t as strictly defined as other philosophical movements, one can still clearly say what it doesn’t represent. Postmodern philosophy is typically associated on the internet as feminism/multiculturalism/Cultural Marxism, although it is none of that at all. It may have some loose ties by…

Some of my FB friends are climate change denialists invoking postmodernism whenever they need to disagree with scientific consensus. People on the right also invoke postmodern ideas when they don’t want to have evolution being taught in their schools and so on.

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#54

Post by burntoutfire »

kaens wrote: post #40
mikemotherwell wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anger at these things obscures the ability to find a solution. When you say "the black and white wealth gap continues completely unchanged for over 50 years', I get that is hyperbole, but surely it has changed in some ways, if not on aggregate then in specific locales, in the curve of the distribution... in SOME way. Given that lots of other things have changed in society, if this gap has stayed the same as an averag…

> that is speaking to something deeper. So what, exactly? the lingering effects of hundreds of years of overt oppression of both the individual and systemic sort. this whole thing is like telling a bunch of contestants in a race that they have to start a minute late and aren't allowed to practice and then pretending like that's not going to be a factor in their finish times.

That does not undermine the thesis that the society is basically a meritocracy - it rewards everyone proportional to their contributions, it's just that some people are poised by birth to be able to contribute more than others.

If US weren't a meritocracy, they would promote incompetent people to positions of power. This for to a large degree does not happen - for example, you can't get a $500k FAANG job just because you have an uncle there. On the other hand, if you were born in a family with right values, have the right genes and worked your ass off in school, you are a powerhouse in terms of your ability to contribute and will get that job (simplification, of course).

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#55

Post by RugnirViking »

burntoutfire wrote: post #54
kaens wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that is speaking to something deeper. So what, exactly? the lingering effects of hundreds of years of overt oppression of both the individual and systemic sort. this whole thing is like telling a bunch of contestants in a race that they have to start a minute late and aren't allowed to practice and then pretending like that's not going to be a factor in their finish times.

That does not undermine the thesis that the society is basically a meritocracy - it rewards everyone proportional to their contributions, it's just that some people are poised by birth to be able to contribute more than others. If US weren't a meritocracy, they would promote incompetent people to positions of power. This for to a large degree does not happen - for example, you can't get a $500k FAANG job just because…

"If US weren't a meritocracy, they would promote incompetent people to positions of power. This for to a large degree does not happen - for example, you can't get a $500k FAANG job just because you have an uncle there."

I think you'll find that a large and potentially growing number of americans disagree profoundly with this statement. Higher-paid = works harder/produces more is pretty much at the core of this disagreement

Specifically your claim that the US (or the west more generally) doesn't promote incompetent people to positions of power would be completely laughable to pretty much everyone I know (and I don't even mean anything regarding the government). Of course my peers are generally young, and university educated like myself, and I am from europe, not NA, but even my right-wing friends don't hold it self evident that a person in a position of power is automatically competent. We've all worked with and under far too many frustratingly underqualified or straight-up clueless people to give such a notion any credit at all.

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#56

Post by Turing_Machine »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #18
Nasrudith wrote: post #10

That is an awful lot of words for "people who don't agree with me are part of a vast conspiracy". Put aside the possibility that the reason elites disagree is because they know something that the author doesn't. Even if one disagrees with a prevailing philosophy or even if it is objectively wrong but the idea catches on doesn't mean there is a conspiracy. That a rant from the 70s sounds like one today says more about…

The piece makes a scholarly argument and is written in scholarly language. It is neither a "conspiracy theory" nor a "rant". You are using loaded rhetoric in an attempt to dismiss the piece without actually engaging with the ideas set forth in it.

And, of course, by brigading this down you are making the author's point for him.

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#57

Post by llamataboot »

mikemotherwell wrote: post #36
llamataboot wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, in the United States, the black and white wealth gap continues completely unchanged for over 50 years, despite having addressed "racism". Wealth disparities have increased to levels not seen in generations. Your income remains tightly coupled and correlated to your parents income. Etc Etc Etc. So basically, from any actual social scientific perspective, meritocracy always has been the bullshit fantasy of c…

Anger at these things obscures the ability to find a solution. When you say "the black and white wealth gap continues completely unchanged for over 50 years', I get that is hyperbole, but surely it has changed in some ways, if not on aggregate then in specific locales, in the curve of the distribution... in SOME way. Given that lots of other things have changed in society, if this gap has stayed the same as an averag…

This is nitpicking the basic fact that the wealth gap between white Americans and African-Americans is basically unchanged. Go take a look at the graphs yourself!

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#58

Post by llamataboot »

burntoutfire wrote: post #54
kaens wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that is speaking to something deeper. So what, exactly? the lingering effects of hundreds of years of overt oppression of both the individual and systemic sort. this whole thing is like telling a bunch of contestants in a race that they have to start a minute late and aren't allowed to practice and then pretending like that's not going to be a factor in their finish times.

That does not undermine the thesis that the society is basically a meritocracy - it rewards everyone proportional to their contributions, it's just that some people are poised by birth to be able to contribute more than others. If US weren't a meritocracy, they would promote incompetent people to positions of power. This for to a large degree does not happen - for example, you can't get a $500k FAANG job just because…

Well-connected parents get you into well-connected schools, which get you into well-compensated jobs. I'll take your FAANG example and raise you all of Wall St.
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