Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 100 posts

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#61

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

endymi0n wrote: post #9
wolfgke wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany (where I live), the job market for software developers is not that you can arbitrarily choose for whom you want to work; you have to take the job that you can get (and I know quite some people (in Germany) who work in software development who would love to find a better job). So I personally believe that these people simply could not find a better job with less moral dilemmas.

I‘m sceptical. 20 recruiters on my LinkedIn profile per month would disagree. I‘ve turned in my notice more than once in Germany and literally had a job offer a day later.

It depends. If you're a web dev/full stack maybe. If anything else, maybe not.

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#62

Post by pluma »

goatinaboat wrote: post #25
wolfgke wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany (where I live), the job market for software developers is not that you can arbitrarily choose for whom you want to work; you have to take the job that you can get (and I know quite some people (in Germany) who work in software development who would love to find a better job). So I personally believe that these people simply could not find a better job with less moral dilemmas.

The market is hot if you are a webdev in Berlin but elsewhere in Germany programming is no more in demand than any other technicians job. This may be hard to believe for the SV bubble crowd but this is how it is.

Hamburg? Cologne? Munich? If nothing else works, pivot to JavaScript.

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#63

Post by RHSeeger »

esotericn wrote: post #43
wolfgke wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany (where I live), the job market for software developers is not that you can arbitrarily choose for whom you want to work; you have to take the job that you can get (and I know quite some people (in Germany) who work in software development who would love to find a better job). So I personally believe that these people simply could not find a better job with less moral dilemmas.

Let me get this straight, the choice is between: a) Take the one job you've been offered right now, in your location, doing evil things b) You and your extended family starve and die Sorry, I'm just not buying it. What actually happens is that people decide that it's convenient to ignore the moral issues for a bit more comfort; basically, they "don't care". There does exist some vanishingly small fraction of people o…

I think you're making this a little more black and white than it really is. How about

a) Take the one job you've been offered right now, in your location, doing evil things

b) fail to cover your mortgage payment this month and your house is foreclosed on.

That choice is a lot more likely than just "you die". And the choice between bending your morals and losing your house is still a hard one.

_(I don't know how mortgages and foreclosures and the like work in Germany, I'm just giving an example that I'm familiar with)_

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#64

Post by dahart »

esotericn wrote: post #43
wolfgke wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany (where I live), the job market for software developers is not that you can arbitrarily choose for whom you want to work; you have to take the job that you can get (and I know quite some people (in Germany) who work in software development who would love to find a better job). So I personally believe that these people simply could not find a better job with less moral dilemmas.

Let me get this straight, the choice is between: a) Take the one job you've been offered right now, in your location, doing evil things b) You and your extended family starve and die Sorry, I'm just not buying it. What actually happens is that people decide that it's convenient to ignore the moral issues for a bit more comfort; basically, they "don't care". There does exist some vanishingly small fraction of people o…

That’s a very high horse you’re riding. Everybody is looking the other way to some extent, there aren’t a lot of companies who live entirely on a moral high ground. Facebook, Microsoft, and Google have all done shady things here in the US and internationally, and they still have a lot of employees. Being in tech at all is being a willing participating in your economy in a way that is disenfranchising the poor, nearly everyone globally is conveniently ignoring that. Reflect on your own choices and see if there aren’t in actuality a few things you’re conveniently ignoring.

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#65

Post by esotericn »

RHSeeger wrote: post #63
esotericn wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me get this straight, the choice is between: a) Take the one job you've been offered right now, in your location, doing evil things b) You and your extended family starve and die Sorry, I'm just not buying it. What actually happens is that people decide that it's convenient to ignore the moral issues for a bit more comfort; basically, they "don't care". There does exist some vanishingly small fraction of people o…

I think you're making this a little more black and white than it really is. How about a) Take the one job you've been offered right now, in your location, doing evil things b) fail to cover your mortgage payment this month and your house is foreclosed on. That choice is a lot more likely than just "you die". And the choice between bending your morals and losing your house is still a hard one. _(I don't know how mortg…

So don't take out a mortgage that you can't afford to pay off.

It has the potential to make you a slave, as you illustrate in your example.

These things don't just happen. If you stand up for what you believe in then perhaps you get fewer toys.

It is how it is. I'd rather be poor and stand up for what I believe in than rich and a dickhead. YMMV.

The fact that someone has sunk costs does not give them a pass.

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#66

Post by lnsru »

coldtea wrote: post #38
lnsru wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I share your opinion, job market in Germany is a tragedy today. I fully understand people writing shady software for VW group at Bosch, they have no alternatives. Kids want nice vacation, payments for the bank must be done every month. Though I am not software developer, but I get also some recruiter offers every week. I was interested in changing jobs and starting talking to these recruiters. Max offers were at €60k…

So, whether they'd work on making surveillance for totalitarian states was based on whether they'd make $60/k year or $100/k, and afford stuff "nice vacation" for the kids? Doesn't sound like a principled stance. Basically it rounds down to: they would consider a more ethical job, but it's their last priority, well behind a good salary and nice benefits... (It's understandable of course, just not principled)

I wish, world would be black and white. And job market would be fair with unlimited opportunities everywhere.

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#67

Post by esotericn »

dahart wrote: post #64
esotericn wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me get this straight, the choice is between: a) Take the one job you've been offered right now, in your location, doing evil things b) You and your extended family starve and die Sorry, I'm just not buying it. What actually happens is that people decide that it's convenient to ignore the moral issues for a bit more comfort; basically, they "don't care". There does exist some vanishingly small fraction of people o…

That’s a very high horse you’re riding. Everybody is looking the other way to some extent, there aren’t a lot of companies who live entirely on a moral high ground. Facebook, Microsoft, and Google have all done shady things here in the US and internationally, and they still have a lot of employees. Being in tech at all is being a willing participating in your economy in a way that is disenfranchising the poor, nearly…

The perfect is the enemy of the good.

I draw my line somewhere, so does everyone.

The choice is not between wanky surveillance defence jobs and going full hippie and living in the forest.

To address the ad hominem: my personal attitude is to use the money I get from software dev for philanthropy. We earn a lot and have a duty to help the world. Noblesse oblige at a smaller scale.

I don't work at FANG because I think advertising is evil. This is a fairly common viewpoint on HN and hardly unique.

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#68

Post by coldtea »

lnsru wrote: post #66
coldtea wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, whether they'd work on making surveillance for totalitarian states was based on whether they'd make $60/k year or $100/k, and afford stuff "nice vacation" for the kids? Doesn't sound like a principled stance. Basically it rounds down to: they would consider a more ethical job, but it's their last priority, well behind a good salary and nice benefits... (It's understandable of course, just not principled)

I wish, world would be black and white. And job market would be fair with unlimited opportunities everywhere.

>I wish, world would be black and white

Doesn't have to be black and white. In fact, it's anything but. You can get a lesser job, with, as you said, 60K instead of $100K, and still take the principled stance. Black and white would be more like having to either work for the surveillance company selling to authoritarian regimes, or starving.

Losing your perks is not a "black or white" ethical choice.

>And job market would be fair with unlimited opportunities everywhere.

If they can only be good if they have nothing to give up for choosing so, and only when there are "unlimited opportunities" to ensure that choosing the more ethical job doesn't hurt their salary at all, then they shouldn't bother...

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#69

Post by coldtea »

Mirioron wrote: post #60
coldtea wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, whether they'd work on making surveillance for totalitarian states was based on whether they'd make $60/k year or $100/k, and afford stuff "nice vacation" for the kids? Doesn't sound like a principled stance. Basically it rounds down to: they would consider a more ethical job, but it's their last priority, well behind a good salary and nice benefits... (It's understandable of course, just not principled)

Isn't that fairly rational? The difference between $100k a year and $60k a year is enormous.

In the sense of self-benefit, yes, it's rational.

>The difference between $100k a year and $60k a year is enormous.

Principles shouldn't depend on that though. Else "Yeah, I'd help kill kids and kittens for $1m" would also be an acceptable answer. $1m is also enormous compared to $100k.

Decent people have made much bigger sacrifices that living with $60K a year for doing the right thing...

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#70

Post by maaanu »

wolfgke wrote: post #8
sveme wrote: post #6

I'm always wondering how the software developers of FinFisher justify working for such shady players like Turkey and other middle east authoritarian regimes. Are they heading home to family and kids after destroying the remnants of the turkish democracy and tell themselves "twas a good day"?

In Germany (where I live), the job market for software developers is not that you can arbitrarily choose for whom you want to work; you have to take the job that you can get (and I know quite some people (in Germany) who work in software development who would love to find a better job). So I personally believe that these people simply could not find a better job with less moral dilemmas.

Sorry, I don't think that is true at all. For one developer there are 5 Job offers. I know multiple people who wrote 14 applications and got 14 offers. Others did not even bother to write any because they got so much offers from headhunters.
Post reply on HN