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Computer Files Are Going Extinct

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Re: Computer Files Are Going Extinct

#361

Post by derefr »

pdonis wrote: post #255
derefr wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say the implementation of a filesystem was hard. You can certainly communicate, as a complete standalone fact, the brute engineering perspective on what makes a particular filesystem work. Probably even in a single lesson. But the point isn't to teach students about a filesystem; the point is to teach students what files are when they don't understand why you'd even want the abstraction that "files" represen…

The answer to "why do you want files as an abstraction" is that files are the units of ownership of data. If you don't control the files that represent your data, you don't own it. You might think you do, but you don't, because someone else ultimately decides the fate of those files.

My point was that there don't need to be files anywhere to represent data at all. Computers can work entirely without files. For example, your whole hard drive could consist of an RDBMS, where you'd not "download" files, but rather "download" streams of tables, which would import directly as tables into the RDBMS.

"Files" are a very specific abstraction; thinking they're the only way to transfer chunks of data around is a symptom of lack of imagination. There are very similar abstractions to files, such as object-store objects. The only practical difference between files and objects is that updates to objects are transactional+atomic, such that nobody ever sees an "in progress" object. But an object store (backed by a block device) is a simpler system than a filesystem (backed by a block device.)

You can control the objects that represent your data. You could also control, via an RBAC-like system, the K-V or tuple-store records that represent your data. Or the Merkle-tree commits. Or the blockchain transactions. Or the graph edges. Or the live actor processes holding in-memory state. You can transfer all of these things around between computers, both by replication (copying) and by migration (moving.) What do files have to do with any of this? An accident of history is what.

Re: Computer Files Are Going Extinct

#362

Post by l_t »

okcando wrote: post #303
l_t wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of precision. I think a big problem with modern use of English is that it has reduced precision. What reduces precision? 1. Increased reliance on idioms to communicate. Idioms use analogies, and usually reduce precision. Our increasingly shared cultural context via the Internet means that more and more idioms are entering common use and (IMO) reducing the clarity of communication. 2. Reduced general vocabula…

Claims like this have been made from older generations to the younger and about every language since recording began. They were once made in Latin about a degenerate bastardization that eventually became French. Naturally, the French have in turn become rather protective. Speakers are entitled to "abuse" their language if they want to. It is theirs.

Of course. It's only natural for things to change, and it's only natural for people to talk about the changes.

I believe our language is almost like a living thing that we are stewards of. One of the ways we can help steward modern English is to discuss the good and the bad parts, and try to move the language toward the good, even just in our personal speech.

So don't take my comment as a criticism of the younger generation. It's a criticism of myself and my generation. I'm just talking about the language that's floating around all of us, right now, that we are all building together. And I want to make that language as "good" as it can be.

Re: Computer Files Are Going Extinct

#363

Post by u801e »

XorNot wrote: post #318
nostrademons wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My dad taught me parts of an engine, along with how to service them, when I was in elementary school (mid-80s). I was on a big "learn how cars work" kick at the time, so he figured he'd indulge me and maybe teach a few practical skills at the same time. I've owned my car for 10 years now, and the total number of times I have had to change my oil, air filter, spark plug, or any other part of the engine is zero . My A1…

It's also just...literally not worth your time to do anything else. Servicing your own car rapidly gets into needing a ton of tools, takes a bunch of time, and makes you no money while taking away your free time. If you genuinely enjoy the process, and it is cathartic and serves the function free time and leisure needs to in your life, then fantastic. But otherwise it's a false economy.

> It's also just...literally not worth your time to do anything else. Servicing your own car rapidly gets into needing a ton of tools

It really depends on what service you plan to do. If you're going to do things like changing bulbs, air and cabin filter, wipers, and the battery, you could get along with just a conventional socket set if that.

Oil changes will require a oil filter wrench/cap, a torque wrench, and a funnel. And those tools can also be used for transmission fluid changes.

Once you get to spark plugs and brakes, you'll need more tools, but those services aren't frequent enough to really warrant buying the tools as opposed to renting them.

> takes a bunch of time

I typically will change the oil on my vehicles myself and a oil and filter change takes me about 45 minutes (including the time to drive to the auto parts store to recycle the old oil). The last time I took my car somewhere for an oil change, I had to drive to 5 different places and finally had to settle on one that made me wait about 3 hours before they could get to it and change the oil.

There are certain services or repairs that will take time (brakes, suspension, exhaust) where I would just as well take it to a mechanic to do it for me, but there are plenty of others that don't take much time at all and cost significantly less in terms of saving on labor and your time for setting up an appointment, taking the car there, getting alternative transportation or waiting, getting the car back, etc.

Re: Computer Files Are Going Extinct

#364

Post by seabird »

anderspitman wrote: post #357
seabird wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm doing is not "anyone with link can view", it's uploading the file in question to an SMB (or equivalent) share and sending the location of that. If the user in question doesn't have permissions for my department's share, they can't access it.

Sorry I was on mobile and wasn't very clear. I meant in terms of services like Google Drive or Dropbox, what about the sharing functionality doesn't work for you?

From a legal standpoint, there is way more to cover with those services. All sorts of hoops (NDA, compliance, etc.) would have to be jumped through. At my current employer, those services not being on our property under our complete control makes our lawyers nervous; counterfeits of our product are an existential threat to us, and keeping tight control over the software and electrical implementation details is paramount. Any idea involving a third-party service hosting sensitive engineering data goes straight into the shitcan.

If you managed to address the legal and security concerns, you'd have to fight against decades of momentum and user entrenchment. Drive and Dropbox are rare; any customers or vendors that you're working with will probably have the headache of figuring out how to interface with these services instead of just applying their ~25 years of experience administering massively powerful Windows services. Power users have assimilated those 25 years of workflow into their very being, and all the added complexity of SMB/Windows shares and other related services are extremely powerful tools that help them ensure that the right people have access to what they need and no access to what they don't. In-house tools are written to integrate with the existing infrastructure, and nobody has enough knowledge or balls to attempt replacing them. Internal data sharing services are generally based on software which has been continuously improving for decades, and has best-in-class feature sets and support.

The points above are themes that I've encountered pretty much universally in every engineering firm that I've worked for or interfaced with.

Re: Computer Files Are Going Extinct

#365

Post by cosmodisk »

xtracto wrote: post #349
cosmodisk wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in an office environment with relatively young people and it is absolutely shocking how little people know about computers or some underlying technologies,despite using them all day,every day.Very few if any, go beyond of the basics of how to open up a website or create a word document. The willingness to learn something new is close to zero and always downplayed with "I'm not good with computers". I've got a…

I consider myself very knowledgeable about computers and computing. Yet I could not fix my car, my microwave or my refrigerator if my life depended on it. Does it make me less? Is it wrong that I use my car 2 hours a day and the only thing I know is to press a bunch of buttons? Not for me. I enjoy CompSci technology. I wouldn't like to spend my time fixing my car.

I don't expect an average user going about fixing their computer. It's more like they know how to drive a car, however it's always in 1st gear and in a straight line.

Re: Computer Files Are Going Extinct

#366

Post by cosmodisk »

incompatible wrote: post #244
cosmodisk wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in an office environment with relatively young people and it is absolutely shocking how little people know about computers or some underlying technologies,despite using them all day,every day.Very few if any, go beyond of the basics of how to open up a website or create a word document. The willingness to learn something new is close to zero and always downplayed with "I'm not good with computers". I've got a…

Isn't this the way it has always been? Then they expect help from the rare few who do understand how computers work, while at the same time somehow looking down at them for not being "normal".

I agree, nothing has changed much and I even think it's going that route where the ones that "know" are awarded handsomely, while the "don't knows" are left on a side with peanuts.

Re: Computer Files Are Going Extinct

#367

Post by z3t4 »

ryukafalz wrote: post #314
nostrademons wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm looking forward to self-driving electrics. You hop in the car, it takes you to your destination, and then you hop out. At off-peak hours they drive themselves to a car farm far away from the city, and recharge. The car service handles all maintenance. There's this phenomena where anything invented before you turn 10 is just part of the natural order of things, anything between 10 and 30 is a great new opportunity…

>There's this phenomena where anything invented before you turn 10 is just part of the natural order of things, anything between 10 and 30 is a great new opportunity that you might be able to make a career in, and anything invented over 30 is a threat to the natural order of things that must be resisted at all costs. As a 26 year old working in the tech industry, I see lots of newer tech around that I'd say is threat…

I like to build my own PC and also help friends. Most PC gamers also build their own PC. Most parts come with instructions and almost all pieces fit nicely, its kinda like building Lego. I switched to Linux a couple of years back. But last month I helped a friend build a PC and when installing Windows 10 it just said "missing drivers" with no clue. Then my friend went to a computer shop and they installed Windows without any issue.

Re: Computer Files Are Going Extinct

#368

Post by z3t4 »

Const-me wrote: post #337
TuringTest wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure there's a parallel. The bits are still there, in the same place and same order, just there's no longer an index to find and use them, so they're not "alive". And they remain in the same place until the file space they occupy is reclaimed by the OS and rewritten with new content.

The most funny thing happens with SSDs. Even when same block is reclaimed and overwritten by OS, it very rarely overwrites the bits in NAND flash, due to the wear leveling implemented in SSD controller chip. When the actual bits are destroyed is unpredictable, probably that's why some vendors have hardware encryption there.

There is a issue with sd cards that they can revert back to an earlier state.

Re: Computer Files Are Going Extinct

#369

Post by TeMPOraL »

htfu wrote: post #319
TeMPOraL wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Saving yields a psd which indeed requires PS. Whether project lives "inside" app or not it's still bound to it by format, and separate from your source. PSD files can be read by other applications. Not perfectly, but can. Many other proprietary formats have been reversed or opened to the point that other applications can read or edit them. And then there's a whole set of formats that aren't tied to any application…

Alright, you're talking philosophy and me more about practical usage. But why do you think apps own CSV any more in Files than in Finder? That's where a lot of my confusion stems. Your view of x-callback seems off too, it's a way for apps to expose functionality in a generic way, so the opposite from being dependent on the relationship between any specific app vendors. Since there are many apps that let you glue toge…

> Alright, you're talking philosophy and me more about practical usage.

It's very practical. I know we're talking Apple now, but to give an example of a thing that happened to me last week: I couldn't send my wife a PDF with transaction details via e-mail "on the go", from my Android phone, because there was no chain of sharing that would link my bank's app and Fastmail. I could open (not save, just open) a PDF from the bank app, and I could share it, but under sharing there was nothing that would allow me to save it to the filesystem, and Fastmail app didn't show up on the list either. This could be fixed on either app's end, but a better fix would be for the OS to just provide the "Save to filesystem" share target for everything.

> Your view of x-callback seems off too

Likely - I had very limited experience with iOS (briefly worked with an iPhone that was recent some 3 years ago). It sounds like something similar to Android's intents system. If so, that's a bit better, but if Android's experience is to go by, a lot of linking you'd expect to work doesn't, either because of misconfiguration or purposeful prevention.

> Anything on the local file system is obviously always available. For iCloud there's that status icon I referred to in my first post, but that's no different from desktop.

Sure, but there are voices calling for making cloud and local completely transparent; I'm strongly against that on the grounds I described.

Re: Computer Files Are Going Extinct

#370

Post by z3t4 »

bigger_cheese wrote: post #350
cosmodisk wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in an office environment with relatively young people and it is absolutely shocking how little people know about computers or some underlying technologies,despite using them all day,every day.Very few if any, go beyond of the basics of how to open up a website or create a word document. The willingness to learn something new is close to zero and always downplayed with "I'm not good with computers". I've got a…

I had to explain to someone in my office how URLs worked - he only knew how to get to sites by typing what he wanted to visit into google search. Our intranet is obviously not crawled by google so he had no idea how to access it. I got the same "I'm not good with computers" response. Modern web browsers are the cause of this they don't distinguish between an address and a search query -frustrating.

Browser vendors get a kickback for each search.
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