Computer Files Are Going Extinct • Hacker News Board

Re: Computer Files Are Going Extinct

#261

Post by kaslai » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 9:58 PM UTC

bcyn wrote: post #222

eecc wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, we’ve been fantasizing of moving away from the file-system-as-tree abstraction since forever, wanting to embrace a metadata rich database approach. Can’t happen soon enough imho

> a metadata rich database approach Can you ELI5 what this means? Very curious to understand ideas on alternatives to the traditional file-system abstraction.

Typically when people talk about that, they mean they want to move from an approach where files have a location to an approach where files are queried based on metadata.

So rather than going to /home/kaslai/images/ to (hopefully) see all my images, I'd instead query my filesystem, perhaps like /owner:kaslai/type:image.

The specific syntax would need some serious thought, especially if we want to make it fairly ergonomic to slot in to existing systems.

There are a large number of approaches that one could take. I'm personally a fan of a hybrid, where you could navigate to a location and then make queries on anything within that location.

IMO one of the coolest features that such a filesystem could have is dealing with music. There's no perfect way to map CD rips to a hierarchical filesystem, but that wouldn't be a problem if I could just open a "directory" like /home/kaslai/music/?artist/?album/ which would automatically make virtual directories based on the artist and album, or I could just use /home/kaslai/music?artist=Smash\ Mouth to get a list of all 182 copies of All Star that I have in my library.

Re: Computer Files Are Going Extinct

#262

Post by pnutjam » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 9:58 PM UTC

cookie_monsta wrote: post #252

pnutjam wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My kids user office 365, but the iPad requirement is my but beef.

> the iPad requirement is my but beef. I feel your pain. At an obligatory 500 bucks a pop I would have been much happier to buy them laptops.

I rent them, but unless you have other Apple products you can only setup adult accounts, so my kindergartner has to be "13".

Re: Computer Files Are Going Extinct

#263

Post by SiVal » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 10:02 PM UTC

unqueued wrote: post #109

jedimastert wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might imply that your highschool teacher friend is instead falling out of computer literacy, and that highshool students are moving away from her form of a computer-based workflow. I very rarely send emails at all outside of work. Maybe one or two support emails. I also fairly rarely create zip files either. Of course, I know how to do these things, but I don't really do it anymore. I haven't needed to, for the sam…

> I might imply that your highschool teacher friend is instead falling out of computer literacy, and that highshool students are moving away from her form of a computer-based workflow. I suppose, in the same way that people using crayons are moving away from the printed word. > Perhaps instead of email, you teacher friend could find out how her students send things to each other and meet them half way? Make up a goog…

The problem I see is that tech is doing the market-savvy thing of moving from features to solutions. We had enabling technologies that people were expected to learn to use in combination, like tools in a toolbox. Files were generic containers that could hold different things and clustered into projects in "folders" and manipulated by specialty tools.

But the new way is exemplified by iOS. You buy pre-packaged "solutions" that keep your data...somewhere...safe, presumably, and away from you so you don't screw it up. If it's something you should be doing, there will be "an app for that" that you can buy, so don't worry your pretty head. If we gave you "tools", you'd just hurt yourself. Why not stop worrying and buy something nice. We have songs, we have shows...you can send a funny animoji to all of your friends. Good times. You look awesome. You're welcome.

And for market success, they seem to be right, although they're creating a situation where, if you don't have to learn to use a toolbox of specialized tools in customized combinations, you'll never learn how and really WILL need to rely entirely on pre-built "complete solutions".

Re: Computer Files Are Going Extinct

#264

Post by jacobolus » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 10:02 PM UTC

michaelmrose wrote: post #259

jacobolus wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you are grading papers do you want to mark up bitmaps? Why not? Get a tablet with a stylus and draw your commentary directly on the image. That is the way teachers have always marked up student work, just now without a paper copy or a physical red pen. Trying to mark up documents using MS Word or Google Docs or whatever is a horrible experience in comparison.

This would be fantastically more work than typing. Text is an effective and effecient medium. If the student can't figure out a slightly different way to accomplish a goal then they are incompetent with computers and only proficient insofar as memorizing one workflow.

What? Have you ever graded written papers? Have you ever seen a paper graded by a good teacher?

We’re not talking about pages of written commentary here. The most “effective and efficient” approach involves circling words or phrases, underlining sentences, writing arrows from one part to another, scribbling some wavy lines in the margin, writing a few words here or there, ...

There is a very limited amount of time available to work through each student’s work. The point is not to entirely rewrite the paper for the student, or explain every problem with the paper in detail. The point is to highlight what the student did well, highlight the parts that make no sense, and give the student a few pieces of quick feedback so they can revise their paper or do a better job next time.

A colored pen on a black-on-white printed copy is much more “effective and efficient” (and “fantastically less work”) than electronic tools prominently involving a keyboard.

Re: Computer Files Are Going Extinct

#265

Post by vic20forever » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 10:04 PM UTC

stormbrew wrote: post #147

perl4ever wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think vastly more people are reading and writing due to modern computer literacy, and I can't stand the way they are changing the meaning of words because they don't read books . It appears vocabulary is increasing, but people get their vocabulary from inadequate online dictionary entries and/or peers that don't read books either. So to me, because I grew up reading books, it's incredibly aggravating because it see…

What, precisely, makes it inferior?

How much time have we all wasted reading threads that consisted mostly of folks arguing past one another, because each participant misunderstood what the other was trying to say?

I used Usenet during the 1990s, and communication was much easier, because grammar usage was much more uniform(1)(2)

(1)Changes in the rules of grammar aren't the primary problem, IMHO. The problem is folks who don't follow any rules at all; rather, they simply string together word sequences that sound familiar.

(2)I sympathize with young folks today who don't have a good grasp of grammar. Most of my education came from reading newspapers and magazines, which still employed expert editors when I was growing up.

Re: Computer Files Are Going Extinct

#266

Post by l_t » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 10:06 PM UTC

pasabagi wrote: post #247

l_t wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of precision. I think a big problem with modern use of English is that it has reduced precision. What reduces precision? 1. Increased reliance on idioms to communicate. Idioms use analogies, and usually reduce precision. Our increasingly shared cultural context via the Internet means that more and more idioms are entering common use and (IMO) reducing the clarity of communication. 2. Reduced general vocabula…

I frequently write to my grandma, who is fairly well-educated, and her writing is technically good. It is, however, bad writing. It's a pattern I've noticed quite a lot with older people. They write perfectly-formed garbage. I think the amount of time people spend writing today is greater than at any time in history, and I think it shows. That's my intuition. But I'd also note, your points (1, 3 for example) contradi…

Thanks, I appreciate your perspective on that.

I don't believe that my points contradict each other. So I'm going to address that part of your post, to avoid any confusion. But I think the rest of your argument is great, I just want to explain myself a bit better.

For starters, simpler writing can indeed be more unclear (because it's less precise, as discussed). So "simpler, but unclear" isn't contradictory in that sense. In this case the lack of clarity comes from a mismatch in the shared understanding between the writer and the reader. The more "simple" a sentence, the easier it is to misunderstand (to a point, and with exceptions).

And with respect to idioms, I would say that "uses idioms" does not convey the same idea as "idiomatic." By "idioms" I refer to reasoning by a shared analogy. A random example is the idiom, "Like water off a duck's back." It conveys meaning by analogy. This is usually less precise than using a direct description ("He didn't seem to care at all.") Sort of a dumb example, but I hope it makes sense.

Finally, about jargon -- by definition jargon is not part of shared vocabulary outside of a certain field of expertise. I believe a lot of our most precise words, which previously were common usage, are now becoming jargon. This is fine for experts but it leaves non-experts with a paucity of words to express their ideas in novel domains.

(Once again, this is just my personal impressions, not based on studies or anything. So, don't take it too seriously!)

Re: Computer Files Are Going Extinct

#267

Post by saghm » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 10:11 PM UTC

seabird wrote: post #224

jedimastert wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might imply that your highschool teacher friend is instead falling out of computer literacy, and that highshool students are moving away from her form of a computer-based workflow. I very rarely send emails at all outside of work. Maybe one or two support emails. I also fairly rarely create zip files either. Of course, I know how to do these things, but I don't really do it anymore. I haven't needed to, for the sam…

I've worked for various companies in the engineering and manufacturing industries, and zipping and sending files over email is as far from dead as you can imagine, and has a very bright future ahead of it. Frankly, today's high school students have wildly deficient computer skills. We're talking about teenagers whose usage of a computer usually consists of browsing Facebook and listening to music on Spotify, not actu…

Honest question: what do you do when the files you want to send are larger than the max attachment size for the email provider? If you send it through another medium, why not do that by default instead of email?

Re: Computer Files Are Going Extinct

#268

Post by kccqzy » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 10:12 PM UTC

jjoonathan wrote: post #131

eecc wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, we’ve been fantasizing of moving away from the file-system-as-tree abstraction since forever, wanting to embrace a metadata rich database approach. Can’t happen soon enough imho

But we're not moving towards a metadata rich database, we're moving towards balkanized proprietary walled gardens in the cloud.

Both of these are true. We're moving towards walled gardens in the cloud, but within these cloud, your "files" are becoming rows in a highly sophisticated database, perhaps in addition to blobs in a highly sophisticated object storage system.

Re: Computer Files Are Going Extinct

#269

Post by saghm » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 10:13 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #241

jedimastert wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might imply that your highschool teacher friend is instead falling out of computer literacy, and that highshool students are moving away from her form of a computer-based workflow. I very rarely send emails at all outside of work. Maybe one or two support emails. I also fairly rarely create zip files either. Of course, I know how to do these things, but I don't really do it anymore. I haven't needed to, for the sam…

The problem is that all the new ways of doing things involve being a slave of some ecosystem that doesn't play well with other ecosystems. If Instagram, Snapchat, Dropbox, Slack, and Google Drive all interoperated properly, this wouldn't be a big deal.

I'm guessing there's a decent chance that the students are already using an email provider that ties them to an ecosystem (which may already have a service geared towards sharing files!)

Re: Computer Files Are Going Extinct

#270

Post by jobigoud » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 10:15 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #66

ACS_Solver wrote: post #12

One of my greatest culture shocks in terms of technology was around 6 years ago when I received an iPad, having no experience with Apple products. After the initial setup, the first thing I wanted was to transfer some files - TV episodes and PDFs - to the device. My first attempt was to SSH into it, only to discover that's not an option, and would require a third-party app store and jailbreak. Then I just connected t…

While I agree with the sentiment, it’s a few years out of date. Starting with iOS 8 - 5 years ago, Apple has had extensibility points where third parties like Dropbox and OneDrive could be used to store documents and used in the common places where you would want to save and upload files across apps. - of course the Files app was introduced two years ago. - there have been third party document providers that exposed…

I don't think the sentiment is out of date.

I have a borrowed iPhone X and just a few days ago I wanted to download videos I took with it. I connected it to my PC and I don't see it as a drive. I had to look up the Internet to learn how to transfer my own files. The solution was to switch Windows to the horrible tile thingy UI, get to the "Photos" application, and from there, there is a button to import the files. I kinda felt treated as an infant.