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Restricting Manhattan’s 14th street to buses has been a success

nytimes.com

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Re: Restricting Manhattan’s 14th street to buses has been a success

#71

Post by nikanj »

adventured wrote: post #60
gpm wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why "cabs" is an allowed exception here. Cabs are like cars, except more expensive, and they drive around without anyone using them for transport looking for business. Why are they superior? I'm picking on this example not because I think that list is meant to be complete or perfectly thought out, but because cabs often seem to get exceptions like this (e.g. in HOV lanes) and I really don't underst…

Cabs could be highly useful for various emergencies or more generally for people in need of urgent singular transport. Ambulances cover the medically injured. Buses cover normal strictly time regimented use. A simple scenario: my son has been injured at home and I need to immediately get home or to the hospital. The bus may take far too long depending. That's an example of an urgent need for singular transport.

Would you be happier if your taxi wasn't stuck in traffic? I have an inkling that 99% of cars on Manhattan are not urgent emergency

Re: Restricting Manhattan’s 14th street to buses has been a success

#72

Post by adjkant »

humanrebar wrote: post #63
adjkant wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire island is well covered by the subway except for going crosstown past the 100's which is served solidly by buses for that use case. Not to mention the many buses that most wealthy people ignore. No need for public streetcars when you already have buses that will be running quite ahead of schedule, as seen with 14th street :) I'm for gradually removing for other reasons, but the size is not the prohibitive f…

> ...except for going crosstown past the 100's... You mean past 60th. Also, the outer buroughs have plenty of subway inaccessible places. And other than Harlem, that's where working class New Yorkers live.

100% on the outer boroughs. This is a conversation about Manhattan...

> You mean past 60th

Yeah I counted the park busses in my head, but again, still good bus coverage. At least the worst case from 60-100 is literally a walk in the park.

Re: Restricting Manhattan’s 14th street to buses has been a success

#73

Post by pmoriarty »

electric_muse wrote: post #22
randall wrote: post #9

Imagine if, in high density areas like Manhattan, cars were simply not allowed. Wow. The thought of how pleasant Manhattan would become if only cabs + busses + delivery trucks + ambulances were allowed makes me almost too happy. Would be so awesome.

Busses and delivery trucks are the most noisy and polluting! That doesn’t seem like the panacea you suggest.

Electric and hybrid buses are much less noisy and pollute much less than their exclusively-fossil-fuel-burning counterparts.

Re: Restricting Manhattan’s 14th street to buses has been a success

#74

Post by humanrebar »

adjkant wrote: post #72
humanrebar wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...except for going crosstown past the 100's... You mean past 60th. Also, the outer buroughs have plenty of subway inaccessible places. And other than Harlem, that's where working class New Yorkers live.

100% on the outer boroughs. This is a conversation about Manhattan... > You mean past 60th Yeah I counted the park busses in my head, but again, still good bus coverage. At least the worst case from 60-100 is literally a walk in the park.

People go in and out of Manhattan a lot. I'm saying you can't isolate the problem like that except for the people privileged enough to afford Manhattan rent.

Re: Restricting Manhattan’s 14th street to buses has been a success

#75

Post by [deleted] »

techsupporter wrote: post #69
close04 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most European cities that shifted away from car traffic did exactly that. First they improved public transport and encouraged any other alternatives like bicycles. They invested in that infrastructure until it was ready to take over. Then they started to slowly "push" people away from cars by turning some streets or city centers into pedestrian zones. You collect the returns after you invest. Otherwise almost any ini…

It's not a fake conundrum in political systems, especially when--as so often happens--road projects sail through the legislature with nary a peep but public transit spending has to be voted on (often more than once) by the people in the region or, sometimes, statewide. European countries often don't have these barriers or at least have a political and government legacy where the people see the investments as worth it…

[deleted]

Re: Restricting Manhattan’s 14th street to buses has been a success

#76

Post by adjkant »

cheschire wrote: post #46
adjkant wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire island is well covered by the subway except for going crosstown past the 100's which is served solidly by buses for that use case. Not to mention the many buses that most wealthy people ignore. No need for public streetcars when you already have buses that will be running quite ahead of schedule, as seen with 14th street :) I'm for gradually removing for other reasons, but the size is not the prohibitive f…

The benefit of street cars is the centralization of power generation away from the population. The downside is having to build rails into the roads. An alternative could be running power lines over the roads and making buses electric.

Very fair for longterm, I'm thinking for immediate turnaround. I think with an aggressive enough plan (which isn't going to happen in reality) you could do this without any notable spending increases in 2-3 years by just stopping cars and maybe buying a few more busses as the main cost.

After that if it continues to work out, streetcars absolutely make sense. Basically just doubling the subway lines at that point. Probably ideal to cover crosstown first across places like 14th, through Central Park, 34th, 116th, 125th, Canal, and Houston, and then you can sure up the avenues with streetcars, probably starting with Harlem through the upper east side. What a fun project to imagine honestly wow.

Re: Restricting Manhattan’s 14th street to buses has been a success

#77

Post by megaremote »

gpm wrote: post #42
randall wrote: post #9

Imagine if, in high density areas like Manhattan, cars were simply not allowed. Wow. The thought of how pleasant Manhattan would become if only cabs + busses + delivery trucks + ambulances were allowed makes me almost too happy. Would be so awesome.

I don't understand why "cabs" is an allowed exception here. Cabs are like cars, except more expensive, and they drive around without anyone using them for transport looking for business. Why are they superior? I'm picking on this example not because I think that list is meant to be complete or perfectly thought out, but because cabs often seem to get exceptions like this (e.g. in HOV lanes) and I really don't underst…

And, they are often the worst drivers in any city.

Re: Restricting Manhattan’s 14th street to buses has been a success

#78

Post by close04 »

techsupporter wrote: post #69
close04 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most European cities that shifted away from car traffic did exactly that. First they improved public transport and encouraged any other alternatives like bicycles. They invested in that infrastructure until it was ready to take over. Then they started to slowly "push" people away from cars by turning some streets or city centers into pedestrian zones. You collect the returns after you invest. Otherwise almost any ini…

It's not a fake conundrum in political systems, especially when--as so often happens--road projects sail through the legislature with nary a peep but public transit spending has to be voted on (often more than once) by the people in the region or, sometimes, statewide. European countries often don't have these barriers or at least have a political and government legacy where the people see the investments as worth it…

Some political systems make even the best solutions "a loop".

Re: Restricting Manhattan’s 14th street to buses has been a success

#79

Post by megaremote »

catalogia wrote: post #29
randall wrote: post #9

Imagine if, in high density areas like Manhattan, cars were simply not allowed. Wow. The thought of how pleasant Manhattan would become if only cabs + busses + delivery trucks + ambulances were allowed makes me almost too happy. Would be so awesome.

If driving into Manhattan were not an option, I would expect demand for housing in Manhattan would go up[0]. Of course, housing in Manhattan is already incredibly expensive... I'm sure Manhattan would become very pleasant for those who could still afford to live there. [0] (Suppose for the sake of argument my preference for commuting was driving,walking,transit (in that order.) With the option of driving eliminated m…

> If driving into Manhattan were not an option, I would expect demand for housing in Manhattan would go up[0]. Of course, housing in Manhattan is already incredibly expensive...

Why?

And we recover all that wasted space on roads to build parks and a lot more housing.

Re: Restricting Manhattan’s 14th street to buses has been a success

#80

Post by Scoundreller »

mgleason_3 wrote: post #67
adrr wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a better strategy than trying to put bike lanes on every street. Drivers don't pay attention enough. Risk of getting doored or having some car turn right without checking their blindspot/mirrors is too high.

Vancouver took their 2-lane each way (4 total) roads and dedicated the outer lane to bikes. They protected that lane from car with planters. So, it can definitely be done. That said, IDK if it’s a resounding success. There may be measures by which it is, I’m just not aware. For example, I found it difficult as a pedestrian and saw a few collisions and lots of near misses between bikes and pedestrians. The planters cr…

> Vancouver took their 2-lane each way (4 total) roads and dedicated the outer lane to bikes. They protected that lane from car with planters. So, it can definitely be done.

Makes snowplowing a mess. NYC can’t just shutdown like Vancouver does every time it snows :)

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