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Restricting Manhattan’s 14th street to buses has been a success

nytimes.com

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Re: Restricting Manhattan’s 14th street to buses has been a success

#31

Post by mattlondon »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #20
rubyboss wrote: post #5

I don't understand this anti-car sentiment from the city liberals. It's already happened here in London and it's getting worse. From 20mph speed limits to blocking roads for bus-only traffic to ultra-low emission zones and congestion charges. It's becoming pretty clear that they don't want people to own their own cars. I'm struggling to see how this is progress.

Just about anyone who has breathed London air in the last 30 years sees how it is progress. Dirty, smelly and unhealthy that creates a coating on clothes, furniture and windows. That's probably not ideal for lungs. We notice, and hate it every time we visit the relatives down there. "Start breathing crap" kicks in around Hendon.

It is the heavy diesel vehicles that are the problem - i.e. buses and taxis mainly, but also commercial vans and trucks.

A universal diesel ban (including public transport) would go a long way to improving air quality IMO. There are viable electric buses, but apparently the way TfL runs it's contracts means it is not commercially viable for bus companies to use EV buses (due to requiring new vehicles on new contracts, but the contracts not being long enough to recoup the costs of EV buses Vs cheaper diesel)

Unfortunately the black cab unions have TfL by the balls so they'll never ban them (just like how black cabs are somehow exempt from ULEZ)

Yes EV vehicles still create brake and tyre particles, but EVs use brake pads less, and I'd rather have just the brake pad and tyre particles to deal with, rahlther than brake, tyre AND diesel particulates.

Re: Restricting Manhattan’s 14th street to buses has been a success

#32

Post by rubyboss »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #20
rubyboss wrote: post #5

I don't understand this anti-car sentiment from the city liberals. It's already happened here in London and it's getting worse. From 20mph speed limits to blocking roads for bus-only traffic to ultra-low emission zones and congestion charges. It's becoming pretty clear that they don't want people to own their own cars. I'm struggling to see how this is progress.

Just about anyone who has breathed London air in the last 30 years sees how it is progress. Dirty, smelly and unhealthy that creates a coating on clothes, furniture and windows. That's probably not ideal for lungs. We notice, and hate it every time we visit the relatives down there. "Start breathing crap" kicks in around Hendon.

It sounds like you are agreeing with me that you don't want people to own their own cars? I suppose we should all just do as the millenials do: rent cars by the mile (Uber) at ridiculously expensive rates.

Re: Restricting Manhattan’s 14th street to buses has been a success

#33

Post by chongli »

phoobahr wrote: post #25
chongli wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're disabled, wouldn't it be better to use a motorized wheelchair? Then you can go anywhere that's wheelchair accessible, without creating any risks for pedestrians.

That doesn’t work for the visually impaired, for those with epilepsy, for the extremely short of stature, for persons without hands, for those who are aged or living with progressive impairments who shouldn’t drive but for whom a $10k-$50k power chair is not an appropriate solution. Not to mention those who could not afford them even if they wanted them. I won’t even touch social issues related to hierarchies of disa…

When I said disabled people, I meant disabled with respect to walking, not driving. Most of the groups of people you mentioned are capable of walking on their own and so would be just fine in a car-free, walkable neighbourhood.

For those who cannot walk but also somehow cannot use a motorized wheelchair but can use a car? I am not sure who would fall into this group of people, but it has to be extremely small. We should be able to find some form of accommodation for them.

As for people who cannot afford a wheelchair or other accessibility device? I think we should fund these for people, using public funds. It's the most humane thing to do, as it provides for the greatest potential autonomy, which I think everyone has a right to.

Re: Restricting Manhattan’s 14th street to buses has been a success

#34

Post by Merrill »

gniv wrote: post #15

The article is a bit lacking in facts. Here's some more info from another source [1]: "The MTA and Department of Transportation announced Monday that beginning July 1, private cars will be banned along 14th Street from Third to Ninth Avenues from 6 a.m. to 10 p.m." "It’s part of the MTA’s plan to increase bus service while repairs continue on the L train." [1] https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2019/06/11/commuter-alert-mo…

Repairs aren't the only cause of mass transit outages. There are also the occasional MTA strikes, which happened in '66, '80, and 2005. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_New_York_City_transit_str...

Re: Restricting Manhattan’s 14th street to buses has been a success

#35

Post by matchbok »

rubyboss wrote: post #32
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just about anyone who has breathed London air in the last 30 years sees how it is progress. Dirty, smelly and unhealthy that creates a coating on clothes, furniture and windows. That's probably not ideal for lungs. We notice, and hate it every time we visit the relatives down there. "Start breathing crap" kicks in around Hendon.

It sounds like you are agreeing with me that you don't want people to own their own cars? I suppose we should all just do as the millenials do: rent cars by the mile (Uber) at ridiculously expensive rates.

For most people in cities using ride-share/taxi is much cheaper than owning car. What I pay for rides a month is just a monthly parking pass.

Re: Restricting Manhattan’s 14th street to buses has been a success

#36

Post by elgenie »

jacquesm wrote: post #18
baxtr wrote: post #6

Cities were designed around cars. It’s time for a change.

Very few cities were. Cities for the most part were designed around horse drawn carriages and tons of foot traffic.

Not in the US, though. Even the city centers that predated the widespread adoption of automobiles were by and large redesigned towards cars. Then in the 50s and 60s whole city neighborhoods were razed for interstates.

Re: Restricting Manhattan’s 14th street to buses has been a success

#37

Post by quest88 »

wetpaws wrote: post #10
throebd wrote: post #4

Maybe fix the metro first? Kiev in Ukraine has better metro than NYC.

This is a false dichotomy. One does not exclude another.

It's still a valid point: If there were a better alternative to cars for the people who currently drive cars then wouldn't they use it? So provide a better solution instead of using force.

Re: Restricting Manhattan’s 14th street to buses has been a success

#38

Post by Reason077 »

mattlondon wrote: post #31
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just about anyone who has breathed London air in the last 30 years sees how it is progress. Dirty, smelly and unhealthy that creates a coating on clothes, furniture and windows. That's probably not ideal for lungs. We notice, and hate it every time we visit the relatives down there. "Start breathing crap" kicks in around Hendon.

It is the heavy diesel vehicles that are the problem - i.e. buses and taxis mainly, but also commercial vans and trucks. A universal diesel ban (including public transport) would go a long way to improving air quality IMO. There are viable electric buses, but apparently the way TfL runs it's contracts means it is not commercially viable for bus companies to use EV buses (due to requiring new vehicles on new contracts…

New diesel cabs can no longer be licensed in London. All new licensed taxis must be zero-emissions capable, ie: electric.

As London taxi licenses expire after 15 years, the last diesel cabs will be gone by the end of 2032. But given how many electrics there already are, in practice the vast majority will be electric long before then.

I agree that more needs to be done about buses. We are starting to see some electric buses, but they're not being rolled out fast enough. TfL needs to stop buying new diesel buses immediately.

Re: Restricting Manhattan’s 14th street to buses has been a success

#39

Post by Wowfunhappy »

chongli wrote: post #33
phoobahr wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t work for the visually impaired, for those with epilepsy, for the extremely short of stature, for persons without hands, for those who are aged or living with progressive impairments who shouldn’t drive but for whom a $10k-$50k power chair is not an appropriate solution. Not to mention those who could not afford them even if they wanted them. I won’t even touch social issues related to hierarchies of disa…

When I said disabled people, I meant disabled with respect to walking, not driving. Most of the groups of people you mentioned are capable of walking on their own and so would be just fine in a car-free, walkable neighbourhood. For those who cannot walk but also somehow cannot use a motorized wheelchair but can use a car? I am not sure who would fall into this group of people, but it has to be extremely small. We sho…

> For those who cannot walk but also somehow cannot use a motorized wheelchair but can use a car? I am not sure who would fall into this group of people, but it has to be extremely small. We should be able to find some form of accommodation for them.

Something to keep in mind, the New York City subway is by and large not wheelchair accessible! They're trying to improve it, but there's just a lot of old, small stations. I've also seen wheelchairs physically unable to fit into train cars when it's crowded.

NYC right now is just a really bad place to live if you're not able bodied. I actually think giving partially-exclusive access to the roads might be the best solution.

Re: Restricting Manhattan’s 14th street to buses has been a success

#40

Post by techsupporter »

close04 wrote: post #26
wetpaws wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a false dichotomy. One does not exclude another.

No but the order is important. Making public transport better first would make the transition away from car traffic somewhat smoother. Many cities already successfully pulled this off and this method received far more popular support than just cutting off car traffic and expecting the people to "deal with it" without having good options.

Except that the order usually goes like this:

1. You can't take away personal car access; the public transportation sucks! Make it better, first.

2. You can't improve public transportation; everybody drives so it's not a good cost investment. Get more people to ride transit, first.

3. Goto 1

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