Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production • Hacker News Board

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#41

Post by paganel » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 9:54 AM UTC

bloaf wrote: post #28

Nasrudith wrote: post #10

That is an awful lot of words for "people who don't agree with me are part of a vast conspiracy". Put aside the possibility that the reason elites disagree is because they know something that the author doesn't. Even if one disagrees with a prevailing philosophy or even if it is objectively wrong but the idea catches on doesn't mean there is a conspiracy. That a rant from the 70s sounds like one today says more about…

Here is another statement which you can characterize as "people who don't agree with me are part of a vast conspiracy." > Republicans have been making concerted efforts to stack US courts with conservative judges. Accusing someone of promoting a conspiracy theory is to accuse someone of making creating an unfalsifiable story, which does not seem to be the case in either my example statement or the original post. Spec…

I’m not an American so I’m not directly involved in the US political process, but my question is why shouldn’t US Republicans appoint conservative judges? Why is this seen as a conspiracy? Isn’t this the reason why they were elected? Should they appoint liberal judges? But then what type of judges should the Democrats appoint? And in today’s political climate it doesn’t look like there’s truly a “neutral” judge, so to speak, one is either liberal or conservative.

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#42

Post by friendlybus » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 10:03 AM UTC

logimame wrote: post #35

EGreg wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is called by many “postmodernism” and it is found on the right and on the left - though far more on the left. Foucalt was a big proponent. He rejected the label but others ran with it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism

No, postmodernism is not identity politics. This video explains this very well: https://youtu.be/26fIBA7O5Ag Although postmodernism isn’t as strictly defined as other philosophical movements, one can still clearly say what it doesn’t represent. Postmodern philosophy is typically associated on the internet as feminism/multiculturalism/Cultural Marxism, although it is none of that at all. It may have some loose ties by…

The premise of that video is wrong when applied to Peterson. It misrepresents Peterson in the first minute by taking Peterson's discussion about pomo neomarxism to be his proclaimed understanding of postmodernists. He isn't talking about postmodernists in the video, he is talking about a group of people that apply both neomarxist and postmodern ideas at the same time.

Cuck philosophy forwarding Judith butler in the video description as a credible source is damaging to his reputation. Other of his videos have been debunked before.

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#43

Post by friendlybus » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 10:08 AM UTC

EGreg wrote: post #31

ralusek wrote: post #8

It's always interesting to see Hayek's words, followed by a timestamp. Similar, although less recent at nearly 25 years ago, is this Peter Thiel video discussing the illusion of multiculturalism in 1996 https://youtu.be/qTPOBEdc7OI?t=722 . The degree to which radically far left ideology is taught in university is one of the most prevalent contributors to the current political schism. America has been primarily libera…

I think this is called by many “postmodernism” and it is found on the right and on the left - though far more on the left. Foucalt was a big proponent. He rejected the label but others ran with it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism

A lot of skepticism falls under postmodernism, but it's not useful to label it that. Are we going to rise only from our skepticism?

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#44

Post by barry-cotter » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 10:27 AM UTC

snagglegaggle wrote: post #26

ralusek wrote: post #8

It's always interesting to see Hayek's words, followed by a timestamp. Similar, although less recent at nearly 25 years ago, is this Peter Thiel video discussing the illusion of multiculturalism in 1996 https://youtu.be/qTPOBEdc7OI?t=722 . The degree to which radically far left ideology is taught in university is one of the most prevalent contributors to the current political schism. America has been primarily libera…

>Most notably, one's racial and gender identity are brought to the foreground as bar none the primary contributors to the outcomes an individual will encounter. To be fair parental income is the best indicator of child income and those things you list are proxies for parental income. That said I do agree with your point, though I think market skepticism is largely a separate issue from forced multiculturalism and ide…

> To be fair parental income is the best indicator of child income and those things you list are proxies for parental income.

Intelligence predicts scholastic achievement irrespective of SES factors: Evidence from Brazil

https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/45855748/j.i...

This study explores whether or not intelligence tests' scores predict individual differences in scholastic achievement irrespective of SES factors such parents' income and education. The variables of interest are analyzed considering three independent samples of participants comprising a total of 641 children. The participants belonged to a Brazilian School characterized by broad and representative ranges in intelligence, scholastic achievement, and SES factors. The results indicate that SES factors do not predict children differences in scholastic achievement, whereas children's intelligence tests' scores predict their scholastic differences. These results underscore personal intelligence as a genuine predictor of individual differences in scholastic achievement.

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#45

Post by zozbot234 » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 10:52 AM UTC

Der_Einzige wrote: post #21

I've never understood where the criticism was for American Universities having a somewhat more "Leftist" culture among social sciences is coming from. Once you learn how to speak the "leftist" language, it's extremely easy to get high grades. Read and understand a Foucault and De Beuvoir work, coast on easy A's through these "grievance" studies courses. I did 1/10th the amount of work for a graduate level gender stud…

Those easy A's are there because you don't actually learn anything in those courses. You aren't getting your money's worth.

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#46

Post by mrep » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 11:41 AM UTC

ralusek wrote: post #8

It's always interesting to see Hayek's words, followed by a timestamp. Similar, although less recent at nearly 25 years ago, is this Peter Thiel video discussing the illusion of multiculturalism in 1996 https://youtu.be/qTPOBEdc7OI?t=722 . The degree to which radically far left ideology is taught in university is one of the most prevalent contributors to the current political schism. America has been primarily libera…

> The degree to which radically far left ideology is taught in university is one of the most prevalent contributors to the current political schism.

I'm super curious to know where you are getting this from because I went to a public state school surrounded by cornfields in the midwest and this wasn't my experience in any way shape or form. I cannot recall any my friends changing their political stances, but then again, we didn't talk politics really. I do know quite a few though that came in republican, left republican, and voted for trump.

> Most notably, one's racial and gender identity are brought to the foreground as bar none the primary contributors to the outcomes an individual will encounter. Not too far behind is the usual suspect of economic class, where "boomers" and "landlords" are the new bourgeois, and debt-laden millennial college graduate is the proletariat class.

I cannot ever recall having had a single conversation in college about any of this.

> The degree to which people are skeptical of markets and a market value associated with their actions is so immense, that the idea that someone with a CS degree having a vastly greater market value than an individual with a degree in Critical Race theory is simply met with derision akin to "but muh STEM."

I'm probably unique in this case as I took multiple economics classes and read probably a dozen more textbooks in my spare time and the answer to this became quite obvious with just basic econ. It's a shame some/more (my highschool incidentally did require one consumer economics class) economics isn't a required course.

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#47

Post by agsilvio » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 12:13 PM UTC

llamataboot wrote: post #30

ralusek wrote: post #8

It's always interesting to see Hayek's words, followed by a timestamp. Similar, although less recent at nearly 25 years ago, is this Peter Thiel video discussing the illusion of multiculturalism in 1996 https://youtu.be/qTPOBEdc7OI?t=722 . The degree to which radically far left ideology is taught in university is one of the most prevalent contributors to the current political schism. America has been primarily libera…

Meanwhile, in the United States, the black and white wealth gap continues completely unchanged for over 50 years, despite having addressed "racism". Wealth disparities have increased to levels not seen in generations. Your income remains tightly coupled and correlated to your parents income. Etc Etc Etc. So basically, from any actual social scientific perspective, meritocracy always has been the bullshit fantasy of c…

This reads poorly.

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#48

Post by CM30 » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 12:45 PM UTC

ralusek wrote: post #8

It's always interesting to see Hayek's words, followed by a timestamp. Similar, although less recent at nearly 25 years ago, is this Peter Thiel video discussing the illusion of multiculturalism in 1996 https://youtu.be/qTPOBEdc7OI?t=722 . The degree to which radically far left ideology is taught in university is one of the most prevalent contributors to the current political schism. America has been primarily libera…

> Most notably, one's racial and gender identity are brought to the foreground as bar none the primary contributors to the outcomes an individual will encounter. Not too far behind is the usual suspect of economic class, where "boomers" and "landlords" are the new bourgeois, and debt-laden millennial college graduate is the proletariat class.

Personally, my experience is that a lot of these individuals outright dismiss class inequality altogether, and put an unwarranted level of importance on gender/race as the defining factors of someone's life. For them, it seems like it doesn't matter if some white man is dirt poor working a terrible job in an area with no economic prospects, merely being male or white is somehow being 'privileged'.

The skepticism about markets and market value is definitely a worrying trend though. As is the general disdain towards capitalism and everything associated with a free market, which feels like people misunderstanding both of those things. Corporate corruption and poor regulations are certainly issues, but that doesn't mean the underlying concept is bad too.

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#49

Post by brownbat » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 1:23 PM UTC

slowswift wrote: post #13

ralusek wrote: post #8

It's always interesting to see Hayek's words, followed by a timestamp. Similar, although less recent at nearly 25 years ago, is this Peter Thiel video discussing the illusion of multiculturalism in 1996 https://youtu.be/qTPOBEdc7OI?t=722 . The degree to which radically far left ideology is taught in university is one of the most prevalent contributors to the current political schism. America has been primarily libera…

> The degree to which people are skeptical of markets and a market value associated with their actions is so immense Similarly, the degree to which market advocates, themselves, exhibit skepticism about the market mechanism vis-a-vis their own intellectual products is so immense, in fact, that the idea that ideas achieving widespread adoption within the marketplace of ideas do, indeed, have vastly greater value than…

The Aspen Summit a few years ago had a forum where someone pushed for major news outlets to promote more intellectual, nuanced content, and one rep from a major network pushed back. They pointed out that the consumer of that sort of content is going to the ballet, or trying the new restaurant by some named chef, or attending the Aspen Summit, not staying at home watching 24-hour news. That sophisticated audience is out doing interesting things, they might watch occasionally, but aren't a consistent enough news audience to shape content. "We run the market test against PBS every night."

Best thing I can imagine is that policy wonks writing in low subscription specialty journals are a bit like arthouse films. Sure, the indie films lose in the market to blockbusters, and wonky policy journals don't get a tiny fraction of the eyeballs of 24 hour news. But it's more likely for important new ideas to be born in the niche, experimental market than vice versa. They're losing the market test, but contributing a lot of positive externalities by influencing the influencers, they're just not able to capture all those returns.

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#50

Post by specialist » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 1:43 PM UTC

EGreg wrote: post #32

andrekandre wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most notably, one's racial and gender identity are brought to the foreground as bar none the primary contributors to the outcomes an individual will encounter. do you have any hard evidence if this? > people are skeptical of markets and a market value associated with their actions assuming that is true, why is that?

People are skeptical of markets because of various factors: 1. That the rich get richer, so to speak, and inequality grows, leading to increasing numbers of people not being able to afford basic rent. 2. That government is captured by markets and corporate welfare is rampant, while welfare programs for the poor are cut 3. People are not LLCs and we don’t want them to just go bankrupt and run out of resources because…

Here's a different take on markets from a commie pinko liberal:

Open markets are just a tool for determining price between many parties. When well designed and regulated, open markets can be efficient at that task.

Closed markets, like single payer healthcare, are a viable alternative when the players decide that price isn't the most important factor. Meaning they're optimizing for other factors. With single payer, maximizing public health is deemed most important.

Rigged markets give all markets a bad name. aka winner-takes-all, late stage capitalism, oligarchy, laissez faire, Freedom Markets™ (my own pejorative).