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Mail Data Loss in macOS 10.15

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Re: Mail Data Loss in macOS 10.15

#101

Post by coldtea »

ahbyb wrote: post #83
herpderperator wrote: post #40

I always find it strange when OS updates affect apps in this way. It just shouldn't happen. It reminds me of when Linus preaches that "the kernel should never break userspace". Why would a OS update suddenly cause the Mail app -- developed by the same company as the OS, for what it's worth -- to have these strange (and catastrophic) data syncing issues? And, just to add, I am tired of OS updates updating and/or relea…

This happens to iOS: every time there's a new major version coming, the layout of many apps breaks for some reason and elements move all over the place. I wonder why.

Huh? Never happened to me, much less "every time".

I had some apps break and need update after an iOS update, but not layout problems in apps... at least not in the 50+ non-Apple apps I use...

Re: Mail Data Loss in macOS 10.15

#102

Post by fauigerzigerk »

coldtea wrote: post #99
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are absolutely right, but all of this is known to Apple. What they need to do when it's potentially about permanent loss of user data is to prove that a postcondition is met (i.e. all messages were successfully converted) and roll back if it isn't. Instead they apparently sync the faulty data with the IMAP server and destroy what most users consider their email backup. This is breathtaking incompetence and neglig…

> I'm so fed up with Apple and its second rate software. I have lost music playlists in this ill fated Catalina "upgrade" as well. I've been wanting to move on to a more flexible and less oppressive environment for a while. At least this finally breaks my inertia. Try Linux or Windows! Their first rate apps will keep your email safe and secure! https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evolution/+bug/372... https://f…

You're missing the point. If I'm getting shoddy QA anyway, why keep paying Apple's excessive prices and accept their oppressive content restrictions?

Re: Mail Data Loss in macOS 10.15

#103

Post by coldtea »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #102
coldtea wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm so fed up with Apple and its second rate software. I have lost music playlists in this ill fated Catalina "upgrade" as well. I've been wanting to move on to a more flexible and less oppressive environment for a while. At least this finally breaks my inertia. Try Linux or Windows! Their first rate apps will keep your email safe and secure! https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evolution/+bug/372... https://f…

You're missing the point. If I'm getting shoddy QA anyway, why keep paying Apple's excessive prices and accept their oppressive content restrictions?

No reason, especially since others are both cheaper AND better at shoddy QA!

Re: Mail Data Loss in macOS 10.15

#104

Post by w0rd-driven »

reaperducer wrote: post #42

I wish I only lost mail data in the upgrade to Catalina. I lost 400GB of data when the installer repartitioned the hard drive and the files that were in folders in root went bye bye. I know I'm not supposed to put stuff there, but it was a family video project I was putting together for my wife for Christmas, and she would have seen it anywhere else. There should have at least been a notice or a warning or some kind…

Just so I clearly understand, if I have a lot of files and directories in say /repositories or /projects and go to upgrade, there’s a chance I won’t have that any more because I mistakenly treated it like any other *nix filesystem? That’s... not disconcerting in the least.

Re: Mail Data Loss in macOS 10.15

#105

Post by reaperducer »

ahbyb wrote: post #84
reaperducer wrote: post #42

I wish I only lost mail data in the upgrade to Catalina. I lost 400GB of data when the installer repartitioned the hard drive and the files that were in folders in root went bye bye. I know I'm not supposed to put stuff there, but it was a family video project I was putting together for my wife for Christmas, and she would have seen it anywhere else. There should have at least been a notice or a warning or some kind…

Don't you have to disable SIP to be able to put files there?

In Mojave, I didn't. I don't recall it even asking for an administrator's password, though it was seven months ago when I created the directories.

Re: Mail Data Loss in macOS 10.15

#106

Post by herf »

herpderperator wrote: post #40

I always find it strange when OS updates affect apps in this way. It just shouldn't happen. It reminds me of when Linus preaches that "the kernel should never break userspace". Why would a OS update suddenly cause the Mail app -- developed by the same company as the OS, for what it's worth -- to have these strange (and catastrophic) data syncing issues? And, just to add, I am tired of OS updates updating and/or relea…

Well "otool -L iTunes" shows Carbon in there, and Catalina doesn't have Carbon.

Re: Mail Data Loss in macOS 10.15

#107

Post by vbezhenar »

segmondy wrote: post #53

I have earned many thumbs down on the net for saying that Apple can't write software for shit. Apple is a design company, they make nice hardware, nice really looking hardware and sometimes performing hardware. That's it, a nice hardware design company. There software is straight up garbage and has been for a long time. Just as I have always been suspicious of those whose main OS is windows and they are not writing n…

I have a completely opposite opinion. I love macOS, I love iOS. But I think that Apple's devices are garbage. I don't like any current Apple device. None. The only reason I'm still using iPhone and I'm still considering to buy Mac is their software. iOS is better than Android and macOS is better than Windows or Linux.

Also, I guess, they produce good design. Their products look good, that's true. Too bad, that I don't care about looks at all.

Re: Mail Data Loss in macOS 10.15

#108

Post by rcarmo »

userbinator wrote: post #16

I don't know if Apple has changed the format again, but in the past at least it seemed reasonably sane and filesystem-based: http://mike.laiosa.org/2009/03/01/emlx.html https://wiki.fileformat.com/email/emlx/ It doesn't seem that hard to write some more tools to manipulate them.

I have had code to handle emlx for over 10 years:

https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2008/03/03/2211

The thing here is that

a) there are also a number of SQLite databases that are used by Mail to store metadata and sundry

b) Mail's IMAP handling has been notoriously buggy at times

My guess is that this particular data loss bug in Catalina stems from a combination of the IMAP implementation and the metadata storage, but since they keep playing whack-a-mole inside ~/Library/Mail, I can't offer more details.

Re: Mail Data Loss in macOS 10.15

#109

Post by fatboy »

coldtea wrote: post #101
ahbyb wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This happens to iOS: every time there's a new major version coming, the layout of many apps breaks for some reason and elements move all over the place. I wonder why.

Huh? Never happened to me, much less "every time". I had some apps break and need update after an iOS update, but not layout problems in apps... at least not in the 50+ non-Apple apps I use...

WhatsApp currently has some weird layout bugs when swiping back to the root view for me.

More annoyingly, it seems the changes to how multiple windows are handled has made it so any visible notification will prevent me from interacting with anything except the notification, so I can't ignore them anymore - I have to dismiss them to carry on using the phone.

Re: Mail Data Loss in macOS 10.15

#110

Post by rcarmo »

ggregoire wrote: post #6

Why do people use Mail? (genuine question)

I've used Mail.app since my NeXT days, and besides familiarity it has the simplest UX that could possibly work (if it was actually implemented properly).

I have Thunderbird installed for accessing a large e-mail archive on my NAS (simply because it has more control over local copies of messages) and find it horribly clunky and un-Mac-like even today.

And none of the trendy, flashy "new inbox philosophy" apps that have come and gone over the years were any sort of an improvement.

Even though I work at Microsoft today and acknowledge that the Entourage dumpster fire was finally fixed in the modern versions of Outlook for the Mac, I still prefer Mail.app because of its simplicity and straightforwardness, and refuse to use anything else for my personal e-mail.

Which is why I won't be upgrading to Catalina until this data loss bug is fixed...

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