The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) • Hacker News Board

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#61

Post by huffmsa » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 1:20 PM UTC

consp wrote: post #60

huffmsa wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and you're going to get down voted below the fold. But it's historical dangerous to say "well ALL the good scientists and government scientists think X is true. Anyone who disagrees is on the take." That means you Galileo.

> That means you Galileo. Who was not the only one, there were many more in his age and time, and was backed by measurable facts.

But they were slapped with the "* denier" label of the time heretic and either executed, exiled, or put on house arrest for life by the "good" government scientists.

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#62

Post by wincy » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 1:21 PM UTC

neffy wrote: post #14

LessDmesg wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, the "environment movement" as you call it is obviously funded by the governments looking for an excuse to raise taxes. It's the governments giving away grant money to fund the "scientific consensus" (another ridiculous term). Meanwhile, this has nothing to do with "saving the world", only with the sovereign debt crisis. United States, EU and Japan are dead broke, they will try every ploy to raise taxes and steal…

If a group of people is allowed to consistently get away with not paying their taxes, then fairly quickly, just by the operation of the monetary system, they will be the only people with any money. The real question is, are these really the people you want in control?

I’d rather no one be threatened with prison for not paying taxes. I don’t think the state (or anyone else) should be able to throw you in prison because you haven’t paid up. It’s just the modern day threat of debtors prison.

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#63

Post by colinator » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 1:21 PM UTC

[flagged]

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#64

Post by jasonvorhe » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 1:21 PM UTC

motohagiography wrote: post #39

Outside climatologists, geophysicists, biologists and other people with scientific training, I am not sure most people are really equipped to argue against evidence of human impact on the climate, or that human activity is a non-factor in change. However, I do think that the policies countries and even municipalities institute in response to the evidence are fair game. Wild lands conservation, green belts on cities,…

So you disagree that climate change is a systemic problem?

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#65

Post by Brakenshire » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 1:21 PM UTC

motohagiography wrote: post #39

Outside climatologists, geophysicists, biologists and other people with scientific training, I am not sure most people are really equipped to argue against evidence of human impact on the climate, or that human activity is a non-factor in change. However, I do think that the policies countries and even municipalities institute in response to the evidence are fair game. Wild lands conservation, green belts on cities,…

That is a legitimate criticism of a lot of the environmental movement, but the viewpoint you’re describing is not from the mainstream of conservative thought.

Conservatives are invited to put themselves at the heart of tackling climate change, by proposing policies which can reduce carbon emissions at a fast enough rate without overturning the economic system. I personally think that is the most credible way of tackling the issue.

But first they have to stop denying warming is happening, stop denying the pre-eminent role of greenhouse gases from human civilization, and then propose mechanisms which are credible to tackle the problem.

Such a position does exist in conservative movements, for instance you can see it in the British Conservative party, but it is unusual in the English-speaking world. Most English-speaking conservative leaders have reduced themselves to bringing snowballs into Parliament, or calling climate change a Chinese hoax.

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#66

Post by Angostura » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 1:23 PM UTC

motohagiography wrote: post #39

Outside climatologists, geophysicists, biologists and other people with scientific training, I am not sure most people are really equipped to argue against evidence of human impact on the climate, or that human activity is a non-factor in change. However, I do think that the policies countries and even municipalities institute in response to the evidence are fair game. Wild lands conservation, green belts on cities,…

> They resent people who use climate change as a proxy for another agenda

In my experience, it's more a question that whenever action is proposed, they simply claim as an axiom that it those proposing action actually have another agenda.

"You want to introduce tax on carbon emissions? You clearly want big government to control our lives and destroy American industry".

This kind of paranoid thinking is problematic in introducing effective measures.

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#67

Post by huffmsa » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 1:23 PM UTC

huffmsa wrote: post #41

neffy wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a group of people is allowed to consistently get away with not paying their taxes, then fairly quickly, just by the operation of the monetary system, they will be the only people with any money. The real question is, are these really the people you want in control?

No, the real question is why do you think that "the government" is entitled to a percentage of your money, and why you think they can spend it better than the private sector.

Unless you pay a private firm to drill a well and put a septic tank in the ground.

Cost a few thousand dollars, and a few hundred every few years to have them come and pump the tank.

I pay Amazon ~$10 a month for access to more reading, listening and video content than most major university libraries have access too.

No late fees either.

Of course sewage is better handled at the municipality level in dense areas, and I'm not okay with private firms having control over access to information, but Federal level governments are highly inefficient.

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#68

Post by rayiner » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 1:25 PM UTC

The underlying study is misleading, and the article’s characterization of the findings is outright deceptive. The article claims that “nearly a billion dollars a year is flowing into the organized climate change counter-movement.” That billion dollars is the total funding flowing into a variety of conservative and pro-market organizations, which advocate on a wide variety of issues.

The underlying study and the article also lump all of these organizations into a “climate change denial” movement. That’s totally false. The official position of organizations like Heritage Foundation is not to deny that climate change is happening. Their position is, basically, the potential risks of climate change are overstated and extreme solutions are not worth the cost. That is not a climate denialism position, it’s a costs-and-benefits analysis. The IPCC’s own estimates of the business as usual scenario show modest economic impacts even under a business as usual scenario out to 2100. (Large in absolute terms but relatively small in terms of the total world GDP.)

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#69

Post by StreamBright » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 1:25 PM UTC

I find Richard Lindzen's work & view very interesting on the subject. He adds more color to this.

"He has published more than 200 scientific papers and books. From 1983[1] until his retirement in 2013, he was Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.[2] He was a lead author of Chapter 7, "Physical Climate Processes and Feedbacks," of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's Third Assessment Report on climate change. He has criticized the scientific consensus about climate change[3] and what he has called "climate alarmism."[4]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lindzen

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#70

Post by jasonvorhe » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 1:26 PM UTC

starvingbear wrote: post #8

Sure there is. But doesn't the title of the article read like nazi era propaganda? Not very professional or scientific or to call anyone on the other side a 'climate denier'. I'm sort of in that camp but am not paid and kind of dont mind debating it

Did you actually just label a decently researched article quoting The Guardian and PBS as Nazi propaganda?

Wow, that's a new low for HN.