The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013) • Hacker News Board

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#41

Post by huffmsa » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 1:12 PM UTC

neffy wrote: post #14

LessDmesg wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, the "environment movement" as you call it is obviously funded by the governments looking for an excuse to raise taxes. It's the governments giving away grant money to fund the "scientific consensus" (another ridiculous term). Meanwhile, this has nothing to do with "saving the world", only with the sovereign debt crisis. United States, EU and Japan are dead broke, they will try every ploy to raise taxes and steal…

If a group of people is allowed to consistently get away with not paying their taxes, then fairly quickly, just by the operation of the monetary system, they will be the only people with any money. The real question is, are these really the people you want in control?

No, the real question is why do you think that "the government" is entitled to a percentage of your money, and why you think they can spend it better than the private sector.

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#42

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 1:14 PM UTC

neffy wrote: post #10

Back in the day (1998), when it was very much not a thing, I remember 4 supposedly different, very professional (for the time) climate denial sites popping up on a search, all of which if you looked at the raw html code, were obviously from the same web page company. And I was enlightened.

[deleted]

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#43

Post by LessDmesg » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 1:14 PM UTC

katbyte wrote: post #32

LessDmesg wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The facts are that nobody knows how climate works and there is no proof that humanity controls climate. The facts are that there is a large propaganda machine in the media using dirty tactics (e.g. a mentally ill child) to spread fearmongering and doomsday bullcrap. The facts are that there is big money behind this climate religion that has nothing to do with helping the environment (reality check: carbon dioxide is…

Oddly I think it’s you who have fallen pray to propaganda. (Ps calling her mentally ill when she is clearly not does nothing for your position)

Here, educate yourself:

> Four years ago, she was diagnosed with Asperger’s, on the autism spectrum https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/23/greta-...

Just watching any of her public speeches makes obvious that she is a poor ill person. And as they say, whenever the government wants to make some especially heinous laws, they use children. It's especially disgusting to see the media use a mentally ill child to further its agenda, but the fact remains.

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#44

Post by DFHippie » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 1:15 PM UTC

fallingfrog wrote: post #30

Right now very close to my house there is a gas and oil storage facility and a pipeline connected to it. The city, under pressure from activist groups, has declared a climate emergency. And yet, nobody has connected the dots on the fact that if we get off fossil fuels in a timely manner, that facility is going to close . Nobody is planning for it or expecting it. The company is not facing higher insurance rates and i…

"Plan" suggests people got together and arranged it. It is the generally acknowledged most likely outcome given our demonstrated inability to overcome the people attempting thwart collective action. Maybe this seems like a slim distinction, but I think it's important to say that not everyone recognizing the likelihood of this outcome is actively planning it.

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#45

Post by huffmsa » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 1:15 PM UTC

hogFeast wrote: post #35

luckylion wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what exactly qualifies as "climate denial", so I'm not even sure which group that is. Everybody who doesn't 100% agree with policies that are suggested and refer to "climate change" as their argument? Global-Warming Skeptics would fit the bill much better, and doesn't have that bitter taste of sounding insanely propaganda-esque, but I guess it also doesn't have the same bang.

The article actually makes this clear: if you believe that "climate change is up for debate, or that climate change is no big deal"...then you are a "climate denier". I wonder if the guys at Smithsonian read some of the research on this from the 70s. Much of that turned out to be woefully inaccurate - Limits to Growth most famously - and that did massive damage...lesson learned? I think not.

They probably have read it but discount it's inaccuracies the same way failed implementations of Marxism are discounted.

> "Well we know how to do it right this time"

Which is what was said last time too, but who's counting

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#46

Post by INGELRII » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 1:15 PM UTC

There is a great book: "Merchants of Doubt: How a Handful of Scientists Obscured the Truth on Issues from Tobacco Smoke to Global Warming"

Two things to learn from the book:

1) The are same people and organizations behind many science related denials: DDT, tobacco, SDI defenders, acid rain, ozone hole, and climate change denial are linked to same group of people. They try to "maintain the controversy" and "keep the debate alive".

2) The usual suspects don't do this just for the money. Sure, they take money from business sponsors, but the merchants of doubt themselves are not purely cynical operatives and money grabbers. There is type of Manichaean paranoia and ideology behind it. It's related to cold war mentality and free market fundamentalism.

George C. Marshall Institute (GMI) was one of the centers of this ideology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_C._Marshall_Institute

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#47

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 1:16 PM UTC

hogFeast wrote: post #35

luckylion wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what exactly qualifies as "climate denial", so I'm not even sure which group that is. Everybody who doesn't 100% agree with policies that are suggested and refer to "climate change" as their argument? Global-Warming Skeptics would fit the bill much better, and doesn't have that bitter taste of sounding insanely propaganda-esque, but I guess it also doesn't have the same bang.

The article actually makes this clear: if you believe that "climate change is up for debate, or that climate change is no big deal"...then you are a "climate denier". I wonder if the guys at Smithsonian read some of the research on this from the 70s. Much of that turned out to be woefully inaccurate - Limits to Growth most famously - and that did massive damage...lesson learned? I think not.

Unlike Climate Change Modelling, Limits to Growth never had the support of 97% of domain-relevant scientists.

And before someone says "Yes, but..." - just because someone is a contrarian doesn't make them right.

Galileo was right because he was a more honest scientist than the fact-deniers around him.

That's exactly where we are today - with the difference that the fact-deniers are the ones running the climate change denial PR outfits and think tanks.

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#48

Post by fallingfrog » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 1:16 PM UTC

huffmsa wrote: post #34

fallingfrog wrote: post #30

Right now very close to my house there is a gas and oil storage facility and a pipeline connected to it. The city, under pressure from activist groups, has declared a climate emergency. And yet, nobody has connected the dots on the fact that if we get off fossil fuels in a timely manner, that facility is going to close . Nobody is planning for it or expecting it. The company is not facing higher insurance rates and i…

Exxon is one of the top 5 investors in renewables research. They're not idiots, they know they're going to run out of oil, and they're legally obligated to make sure their shareholders don't lose all of their money. So they're preparing for the future.

All the fossil fuel deposits and companies in the world are worth probably at least 10 trillion dollars. Not to mention the value of all the businesses that depend on the products they sell. You think they’re going to just write that off? They’re going to fight with every bit of strength they have to make sure that the fuels are available to extract, and every government in the world is going to help them. I just want us to all understand what we’re up against.

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#49

Post by FabHK » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 1:16 PM UTC

bjornsing wrote: post #40

> Clarifying the institutional dynamics of the CCCM can aid our understanding of how anthropogenic climate change has been turned into a controversy rather than a scientific fact in the U.S. I know how unpopular this comment will be in some circles, but I feel I have to say it anyway: Anthropogenic climate change is not a “scientific fact”. It is a theory, and (to the best of my knowledge) an untestable one at that.…

Sure, just like quantum mechanics and evolution are "just theories". In other words: our current best understanding of the world, provisional (subject to further revision or even deeper, more fundamental understanding), but extremely well established and most definitely the most rational position to hold.

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#50

Post by DFHippie » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 1:16 PM UTC

hogFeast wrote: post #38

Billionaires fund "Climate Denial"...oh, evil billionaires using their secret dark money trusts. Billionaires fund Extinction Rebellion...oh, virtuous enlightened billionaires, so smart, so moral.

Yes, some billionaires do good things and some do bad things. And some do a mixture of the two. It's hard to wrap your head around, but there it is.