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Mail Data Loss in macOS 10.15

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Re: Mail Data Loss in macOS 10.15

#91

Post by veidr »

quadrifoliate wrote: post #64

A lot of this is a repeat of weird issues that we saw 8(!) years ago with OSX Lion. Perhaps I'm off the mark here, but I strongly suspect there's lack of a proper manual QA team at Apple. QA at most so-called "modern" companies these days has turned into overly fetishising automated testing. Automation is valuable, but crucially also leads to situations where the least-common-denominator situations get tested since i…

> lack of a proper manual QA team at Apple

Yeah, I think so.

Apple's apps have always been terrible, and it seems weird because their Mac OS (though of course buggy in absolute terms) has, for almost 20 years, far outshined any other desktop computing OS of similar complexity (meaning, basically, Windows and Ubuntu and equivalent Linux-plus-all-basic-apps type distros).

I think this is a side effect of their silo culture. App teams are tiny, often one person, and they work in permanent stealth mode. Then they finally release a developer preview, which includes the core OS plus like a hundred app releases.

Suddenly, they have thousands of beta testers: Mac developers paying Apple for the privilege. I've been one for the past 20 years or so. But we don't have time to file bugs (especially through their shitty, rude Radar system, although it's recently finally gotten... um, marginally less shitty). We spend our bug-filing time on the OS deficiencies that are fucking up our own applications.

So the OS itself gets stress tested by thousands of developers, whereas none of us really gives a shit about the app collection that will ship alongside the OS.

E.g., relevant to this issue: thousands and thousands of developers install every OS release and beat on it, but almost none of us would expose our actual email accounts to some developer preview release of Mail.app. We'd just use a different machine, or use webmail for a while while working with the new OS.

So the apps themselves actually get released with pretty minimal real user testing.

Re: Mail Data Loss in macOS 10.15

#92

Post by auggierose »

blub wrote: post #78
segmondy wrote: post #53

I have earned many thumbs down on the net for saying that Apple can't write software for shit. Apple is a design company, they make nice hardware, nice really looking hardware and sometimes performing hardware. That's it, a nice hardware design company. There software is straight up garbage and has been for a long time. Just as I have always been suspicious of those whose main OS is windows and they are not writing n…

Blaming "the company" for bugs in complex human-machine systems doesn't really say anything insightful, actionable or useful. Android, Linux, Windows, macOS and iOS are all broken, just in different ways. This is the quality that can be reached for mass-market consumer products with the standard development processes.

Yeah, good point. I am quite happy with Catalina so far so I have battled through a few issues. I think people basically have no idea what it takes to deliver perfectly functioning software. Basically, you need to combine user testing, design and theorem proving. It would be just too costly even for Apple.

Re: Mail Data Loss in macOS 10.15

#93

Post by greggman2 »

greggman2 wrote: post #57
thelittleone wrote: post #36

The position of Apple today reminds me a lot of Microsoft after they peaked (~2000?). Cocky to the point of arrogance because of market position, past innovations and brand loyalty (e.g., it is cool to own Apple). But loyalty and market sentiment can only endure so much amidst plummeting product quality, nonsensical pricing (e.g. dongles) and lack of any meaningful innovation (thinner doesn't count). Apple doesn't li…

What's thin at Apple? They aren't the thinest by a long shot now a days. They aren't the lightest. They aren't the most powerful. There was a time when a Macbook Air was kind of thin and light compared to other laptops. Now it's neither by comparison to the competition. Plenty of thinner lighter more powerful laptops. iPhone nor iPad is also not even remotely the thinest. There was also a time when a Macbook Pro was…

I don't get the downvotes. I'm an Apple fan. Apple pushed the crap out of the Air when it came out as the lightest thinest laptop. It's not anymore. Not even close. I want Apple to reclaim the throne. What is there to downvote?

Similarly 2008-2012 or so AFAIK, maybe I'm mis-informed, Macoobk Pro's were top of the line notbooks, no compomises. I've from now through then and am typing on one now. But, now they aren't the top. Low powered GPU means all my graphics friends have had to switch. Some of them had previously bought Macbook Pros and installed Windows but they can't even do that now as the GPUs just aren't there. eGPUS don't count as they aren't portable by any reasonable defintion of portable. I want Apple to reclaim the throne here too. What's is there to downvote about that?

Re: Mail Data Loss in macOS 10.15

#94

Post by hesk »

sroussey wrote: post #52
xattt wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Mail app in Leopard had a bug that would spam recipients with copies of drafts as they were typed and saved automatically by the app. Not an apologist, but showstopper bugs were a thing even under Jobs.

Yeah, I hit a bug where it deleted my contacts and then synced the deletions across devices. :(

I ran into the same problem but was able to fix it with Time Machine. The contacts app has special support for Time Machine (you can slide through time and don't have to go to the Finder) and I could restore all my contacts from a few weeks ago.

Re: Mail Data Loss in macOS 10.15

#95

Post by hesk »

ggregoire wrote: post #6

Why do people use Mail? (genuine question)

You can get message: URLs using AppleScript which will open the mail. I paste these in my Orgmode files. This allows me to archive the mail (and keep my inbox clean) while still keeping track of tasks.

Re: Mail Data Loss in macOS 10.15

#96

Post by fauigerzigerk »

userbinator wrote: post #67
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I always find it strange when OS updates affect apps in this way. It just shouldn't happen. Right? Are there not automated tests for this stuff? I would expect that if you commit something that causes this, the next day you get an email that says, "your name is on commit $FOO, which caused regression tests to fail in tests/firstparty/apps/mail; please fix it (sincerely, Jenkins)" or so. Heck, it's more egregious he…

I wouldn't place much emphasis on testing, and Apple most likely has tests, because the exact conditions that trigger such bugs are often so narrow that an artificial testing environment for them to "make the stars line up" would be nearly impossible to create. Anything involving multithreading/asynchronous code tends to fall in that category, but even single-threaded code can be like that; to make an artificial rele…

You are absolutely right, but all of this is known to Apple.

What they need to do when it's potentially about permanent loss of user data is to prove that a postcondition is met (i.e. all messages were successfully converted) and roll back if it isn't.

Instead they apparently sync the faulty data with the IMAP server and destroy what most users consider their email backup. This is breathtaking incompetence and negligence if it's actually true.

The worst thing is that it is near impossible to find out whether or not you're affected by this.

I'm so fed up with Apple and its second rate software. I have lost music playlists in this ill fated Catalina "upgrade" as well. I've been wanting to move on to a more flexible and less oppressive environment for a while. At least this finally breaks my inertia.

Re: Mail Data Loss in macOS 10.15

#97

Post by coldtea »

herpderperator wrote: post #40

I always find it strange when OS updates affect apps in this way. It just shouldn't happen. It reminds me of when Linus preaches that "the kernel should never break userspace". Why would a OS update suddenly cause the Mail app -- developed by the same company as the OS, for what it's worth -- to have these strange (and catastrophic) data syncing issues? And, just to add, I am tired of OS updates updating and/or relea…

>I always find it strange when OS updates affect apps in this way. It just shouldn't happen. It reminds me of when Linus preaches that "the kernel should never break userspace". Why would a OS update suddenly cause the Mail app -- developed by the same company as the OS, for what it's worth -- to have these strange (and catastrophic) data syncing issues?

It's doesn't "suddenly" cause the existing Mail app to break.

It's the new version of the Mail app that breaks -- for reasons not having to do with the rest of the OS.

macOS, as an OS, is not just the kernel, SDK, and GUI libs, and tooling: it's rather a distro that includes regular apps like Mail, Safari, Notes, etc.

If it was OS caused, it would affect others apps too.

Re: Mail Data Loss in macOS 10.15

#98

Post by coldtea »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #58
herpderperator wrote: post #40

I always find it strange when OS updates affect apps in this way. It just shouldn't happen. It reminds me of when Linus preaches that "the kernel should never break userspace". Why would a OS update suddenly cause the Mail app -- developed by the same company as the OS, for what it's worth -- to have these strange (and catastrophic) data syncing issues? And, just to add, I am tired of OS updates updating and/or relea…

> I always find it strange when OS updates affect apps in this way. It just shouldn't happen. Right? Are there not automated tests for this stuff? I would expect that if you commit something that causes this, the next day you get an email that says, "your name is on commit $FOO, which caused regression tests to fail in tests/firstparty/apps/mail; please fix it (sincerely, Jenkins)" or so. Heck, it's more egregious he…

>Right? Are there not automated tests for this stuff? I would expect that if you commit something that causes this, the next day you get an email that says, "your name is on commit $FOO, which caused regression tests to fail in tests/firstparty/apps/mail; please fix it (sincerely, Jenkins)" or so.

Do you really believe they aren't running automated tests at Apple?

It's more likely than not, that this was not caught by one of the tests...

Re: Mail Data Loss in macOS 10.15

#99

Post by coldtea »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #96
userbinator wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't place much emphasis on testing, and Apple most likely has tests, because the exact conditions that trigger such bugs are often so narrow that an artificial testing environment for them to "make the stars line up" would be nearly impossible to create. Anything involving multithreading/asynchronous code tends to fall in that category, but even single-threaded code can be like that; to make an artificial rele…

You are absolutely right, but all of this is known to Apple. What they need to do when it's potentially about permanent loss of user data is to prove that a postcondition is met (i.e. all messages were successfully converted) and roll back if it isn't. Instead they apparently sync the faulty data with the IMAP server and destroy what most users consider their email backup. This is breathtaking incompetence and neglig…

>I'm so fed up with Apple and its second rate software. I have lost music playlists in this ill fated Catalina "upgrade" as well. I've been wanting to move on to a more flexible and less oppressive environment for a while. At least this finally breaks my inertia.

Try Linux or Windows! Their first rate apps will keep your email safe and secure!

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evolution/+bug/372...

https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=88648

https://blog.lightlyseared.online/2010/04/06/fixing-corrupt-...

https://windowsreport.com/outlook-emails-disappeared/

https://thenextweb.com/microsoft/2013/06/20/outlook-coms-mis...

https://www.pcworld.com/article/237103/five_outlook_nightmar...

Re: Mail Data Loss in macOS 10.15

#100

Post by coldtea »

microtonal wrote: post #74
kccqzy wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a very outdated vision of what constitutes an OS. (Or perhaps a very Linux-centric vision.) Nowadays an OS is far more than just a kernel. It's the associated userland libraries, frameworks, and basic utilities. And yes, the scope of these basic utilities have expanded far beyond just shell-utilities like sh or cat; they now include things like a graphical mail client.

How is that a Linux-centric vision? Linux distributions have always tightly coupled application updates to OS (distribution) updates. In fact, this was often a criticism of Linux and one of the motivators for a lean immutable system like Fedora Silverblue, where you install and update applications out-of-band with Flatpak.

>How is that a Linux-centric vision?

In that many people consider the Linux kernel and basic userland as the "OS", and the applications, packaging, etc as the "distro".

Even casually, when we mention OSes, we say "Windows, macOS, Linux", not "Windows, macOS, Ubuntu, Debian, Centos, etc etc...".

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