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Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

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Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#121
If Facebook wants a currency they should start a country. Given that they are an organizing platform for various insurgent groups... I could almost see the headline: "victorious insurgent group 'ZucLiberationFront' agrees to partner with Facebook to run their country's currency system using Libra. Reasons cited were gratitude for free Facebook advertising that helped them recruit rebel fighters"

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#122
post #65

There was absolutely no reason for this to project to exist. The only feature of digital currencies that make some of them interesting is that they are fully distributed and based on absolutely zero trust of other users on the network. What Facebook was trying to do here was take something that could be implemented in a standard centralized database, stick some marketing on it, and try to ride a hype wave that has si…

How else can facebook prevent people from moving on to wechat with its internal payment system? Why should people stick to facebook if wechat can offer a whole bunch of services that need (micro) transactions?

They could just get a banking license and do a stored value wallet denominated in an existing currency.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#123
post #65

There was absolutely no reason for this to project to exist. The only feature of digital currencies that make some of them interesting is that they are fully distributed and based on absolutely zero trust of other users on the network. What Facebook was trying to do here was take something that could be implemented in a standard centralized database, stick some marketing on it, and try to ride a hype wave that has si…

How else can facebook prevent people from moving on to wechat with its internal payment system? Why should people stick to facebook if wechat can offer a whole bunch of services that need (micro) transactions?

Facebook can have an internal payment system that uses local currencies. There is no reason it needs to create its own currency, except as a power grab. Building out a Paypal clone is fine enough.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#124
I think given enough time, Libra project can succeed. But it has to jump through many hurdles. It will require a lot more investment than Facebook anticipate.

I advocate for a new type of crypto: digital native and decentralized stablecoin. By adding a constant inflation rate, coin price can become somewhat stable. The tradeoff is worthy for permissionless, digital native and decentralization. I outline the benefits of this new type of cryptocurrency in this article:

The Next Big Thing in Crypto: Using Inflation to Create Stablecoin

https://bitflate.org/post/2019/10/10/the-next-big-thing-in-c...

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>no one anticipated the reaction from lawmakers and rules agencies. if that's really the case at the Facebook headquarters they need to do some soul searching about how in touch they are with the world at large. Because when I read that the biggest social network on the planet is going to try to introduce its own currency it took me and I think a lot of other people exactly two seconds to figure out that Uncle Sam an…

Why would Visa, Mastercard and others agree to participate if they believed it was doomed in this way? I do not think it was nearly so obvious as you suggest. The way rules agencies had treated crypto so far looked accommodating.

I spent a couple years in the DC blockchain scene. If my experience is anything to go by, the answer has a lot to do with how much of the technical expertise in this space is concentrated behind a screen consisting of a relative handful of self-declared consultants. These characters (many with Deloitte on their biz cards) prowl the power hangouts of DC to talk up how great crypto is, while handing out free samples to every midlevel policy wonk they can get beer time with. This has been going on for years and I see Libra as the first major attempt to capitalize on this ground game.

These wonks then make all the right favorable noises when queried by the FBs and VISAs of the world about the posture of the agencies, organizations, departments and NGOs they work for regarding crypto. As there's little to no in-group tolerance for critical introspection, there's correspondingly little to no collective power of seeing how this all looks from the outside.

It's a tight mutual feedback loop, twisted into hysteresis because everyone except the general public stands to gain from telling each other that the regulatory coast is clear.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#126
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think a Facebook currency is not going to charge fees and upsell you left, right and centre the first moment they think they can get away with it? That's as well as targeting advertising and selling data of your spending patterns.

It's not that I think the Libra product is going to be fantastic per se. I just think that competition will force all the companies to make their products better. I don't want the government to prevent companies from making products, I want to be able to choose of my own free will whether it's a good product or not.

My difficulty is, at heart, I don't want my tokens of exchange to be a product at all. I want the guarantee of universality that comes with money. Accessible to rich and poor alike, good credit or bad. Anything that tries to edge that out via the market is inherently a bad thing. Ultimately for all except stockholders. A central bank backed cryptocurrency with all the traits of universality and legal tender may be a better bet...

I am fully in favour of the various new banking services and apps that are springing up, services to manage, transfer, save and invest better etc. That's an appropriate place for the market. Even there it's needed regulation to ensure the most marginal in society can get a basic bank account, or not get stiffed on fees.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#127
post #65

There was absolutely no reason for this to project to exist. The only feature of digital currencies that make some of them interesting is that they are fully distributed and based on absolutely zero trust of other users on the network. What Facebook was trying to do here was take something that could be implemented in a standard centralized database, stick some marketing on it, and try to ride a hype wave that has si…

It wasn’t implemented as a proof of work currency, but as a small distributed database. At its core it’s a multicurrency fiat currency fund that you can trade ownership units of, like an ETF. But internationally on no specific stock exchange. And when you buy units of it, the currency you put into it gets added to the fund, so it isnt dilutive.

It’s basically creating a global currency out of the worlds fiat currencies, like banks did with gold long time ago. It’s quite clever and I could see the economic value and issues of something like market created globobucks.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#128

Call me cynical, but the whole idea of Libra would be disruptive to the existing international payment businesses, such as the ones that just exited. So the only reason for them to join in the first place would be to basically "know your enemy" - make certain you get the first-person intel on the project's vitals and to know what to expect. Now that a couple of governments made it clear that there would be roadblocks…

And here I thought the whole idea of Libra is to take marketshare from WeChat & M-Pesa.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#129

David Marcus update [1] : Special thanks to @Visa and @Mastercard for sticking it out until the 11th hour. The pressure has been intense (understatement), and I respect their decision to wait until there’s regulatory clarity for @Libra_ to proceed, vs. the invoked threats (by many) on their biz. I would caution against reading the fate of Libra into this update. Of course, it’s not great news in the short term, but i…

The fate of Libra isn't tied to Visa/Mastercard's withdrawal. It's ultimately about whether there is a market for a new mechanism for international money transfers.

As someone who runs a business that has (small) offices both in EU and North America, let me share a quick overview of the current state of things.

When you want to transfer a non-trivial amount of money between 2 countries, you have likely received it in the originating country's currency and are planning to spend it in the destination currency. Now because you don't want to pay ~3% currency exchange fees to your bank, the only reasonable way to do this is to get an account with a business forex broker, that will offer you a rate in the ballpark of 0.5% off the spot price. You will have to do the KYC/AML [0], but the complexity of the whole transfer is basically this:

1. Do a domestic wire to your broker's office in the originating economic zone.

2. Wait for them to call you and confirm the exchange rate.

3. Receive a domestic wire from the broker's office in the destination economic zone.

You often need to show the invoices/contracts showing the origin of the funds and the purpose of the transfer, but if you are running a legitimate business that pays taxes, you will need those for accounting reasons anyway.

Now the 0.5% fee charged by the forex trader (that is bound to a bunch of rules and regulations making it harder for it to run away with your funds) is not worth putting your trust into a fully automated distributed ledger, where a lost password or a hacked computer could permanently eat away your money without any legal recourse.

So the only potential audience of a new international coin would be people actively trying to evade KYC/AML and that's exactly why the governments will do their best to prevent it from getting adoption (which is very easy since you can outright ban the fiat endpoints in your jurisdiction).

On the other end, there's a bunch of people who have never written a response to an AML inquiry and have hardly done any business outside of their own state, that are hoping to get rich quick by grabbing a stake at something they haven't fully researched and later reselling it at a profit to someone who will actually need it. I wouldn't see any reason for it to be successful long-term, sorry.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#130
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about using your money electronically without permission from a large organization?

I think that's generally unsolved since right now you can't convert currency into _any_ cryptocoin without KYC (know your customer).

Sure you can, buy mining equipment and wait. Localbitcoins also didn’t involve KYC AML last time I tried it.
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