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Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

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Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#361

Post by lern_too_spel »

ikeboy wrote: post #358
lern_too_spel wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Complying with a court order doesn't open you up to any liability It does if you've told your customers that you can't. > the users the FBI was after in this case were already dead. The owner of the device you're talking about was the user's (singular, not plural) living employer, but I wasn't talking about that user in the sentence you quoted. After implementing the data extraction procedure the FBI described, App…

>It does if you've told your customers that you can't. Not really. First of all, a suit is unlikely when the person who'd bring a lawsuit is someone that committed a crime with probable cause. Second, damages from having your illegal actions uncovered aren't recoverable when there's a valid warrant, it would be clearly against public policy. They wouldn't be liable at all; if somehow there was a theory of liability i…

> committed a crime with probable cause

Your error is that you don't know the difference between committing a crime and probable cause.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#362

Post by ikeboy »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #361
ikeboy wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It does if you've told your customers that you can't. Not really. First of all, a suit is unlikely when the person who'd bring a lawsuit is someone that committed a crime with probable cause. Second, damages from having your illegal actions uncovered aren't recoverable when there's a valid warrant, it would be clearly against public policy. They wouldn't be liable at all; if somehow there was a theory of liability i…

> committed a crime with probable cause Your error is that you don't know the difference between committing a crime and probable cause.

That was clumsily worded. I mean someone who a judge has decided there is probable cause that they committed a crime.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#363

Post by lern_too_spel »

ikeboy wrote: post #362
lern_too_spel wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> committed a crime with probable cause Your error is that you don't know the difference between committing a crime and probable cause.

That was clumsily worded. I mean someone who a judge has decided there is probable cause that they committed a crime.

I understand now. Thanks for the clarification.

> Second, damages from having your illegal actions uncovered aren't recoverable when there's a valid warrant, it would be clearly against public policy.

As I said, some of them are innocent and don't have any illegal actions to uncover.

> if somehow there was a theory of liability it would be capped at the cost of the phone, which is negligible.

They can sue for additional damages due to loss of privacy.

> It doesn't add up as a motivation for Apple.

The direct cost of the lawsuits includes not just the damages but the legal costs. On top of this, the press that Apple would get from the lawsuits would possibly do more than completely reverse the free press from its initial lie.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#364

Post by ikeboy »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #363
ikeboy wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was clumsily worded. I mean someone who a judge has decided there is probable cause that they committed a crime.

I understand now. Thanks for the clarification. > Second, damages from having your illegal actions uncovered aren't recoverable when there's a valid warrant, it would be clearly against public policy. As I said, some of them are innocent and don't have any illegal actions to uncover. > if somehow there was a theory of liability it would be capped at the cost of the phone, which is negligible. They can sue for additio…

I'd think public policy prevents liability from complying with a valid court order in any event.

In the counterfactual world where Apple made the software, I doubt there'd be any suits against Apple for it, and it likely wouldn't even be public. Remember, the only times they would get a warrant is when they already have the phone in their possession, and there'd be no reason to let the suspect know they cracked the phone unless it actually goes to trial and they need to disclose where they got the evidence from.

Plus, if your theory of liability is correct, shouldn't Apple be equally as liabile for making phones that the police can crack, even if they don't use Apple to crack them? Which happened quite often, yet we've seen no lawsuits related to that.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#365

Post by ninju »

etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #175
losteric wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AWS is working on it too. Internally, the region is very much treated as untrustworthy.

Very interesting. Any additional info? Info that is maybe not public?

Actually ALL data centers hosted in China will be subject to data examination by the Ministry of Public Security

https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/10/chinas-new-cybersecurit...

The inspection team has complete access to the network system. Inspection can cover both the technical aspects of the network system and the data/information maintained on the servers. See Article 10. The inspectors can fully access the system and they are permitted to copy any data they find. See Article 15. The only restriction on the inspectors copying the data in your company’s system is that the inspectors must provide you with a receipt. Though Article 10 “restricts” access to matters involving national security, the definition of national security in China is so broad that there is no real limitation on what can be accessed, copied and removed.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#366

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

est31 wrote: post #357
Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctored binaries (that leak private keys) can be sent to only select devices of a people under surveillance. So reverse-engineering generally available app will show nothing. Apple REALLY must be coerced into allowing app sideloading (and accept push notifications not only through APNS)

The OS comes from apple, too. How does sideloading help when the OS is backdoored? How does installing your own OS help when there is a backdoor in the hardware?

Sideloading helps to install the apps you want (or need), not the apps Apple allows you to use. Thing is, you buy a very expensive piece of hardware, and you don't even truly own it. Of course, Apple frames it as 'care to protect you from malware', but in reality, it's just a digital handcuff.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#367

Post by dwaite »

cromwellian wrote: post #108
baddox wrote: post #9

Can I play devil's advocate for just a moment? Gruber asks for evidence. His only complaints seems to be the lack of evidence and a question of whether the app violates local (Hong Kong) law. Cook's memo directly addresses both of those issues: > However, over the past several days we received credible information, from the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau, as well as from users in Hong Kong, that…

Apple was in a similar situation with the FBI asking to unlock suspected terrorist phones, and they pushed back. Let's not give them a pass here, as it's quite obvious why they're accepting the Chinese statements at face value, because of how dependent they are on the Chinese market. This is about money, not principles.

> Let's not give them a pass here, as it's quite obvious why they're accepting the Chinese statements at face value, because of how dependent they are on the Chinese market.

Let's not forget that in the United States, Apple has recourse to push back against government requests within the system of the law.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#368

Post by dwaite »

stupidcar wrote: post #60
baddox wrote: post #9

Can I play devil's advocate for just a moment? Gruber asks for evidence. His only complaints seems to be the lack of evidence and a question of whether the app violates local (Hong Kong) law. Cook's memo directly addresses both of those issues: > However, over the past several days we received credible information, from the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau, as well as from users in Hong Kong, that…

No, the complaint is not that Cook is not providing direct evidence, and it is a complete misrepresentation to suggest so. It makes your protestations of disinterest rather suspect, as those of supposed "devil's advocates" so often seem to be. The complaint is that Cook's claims are extraordinary and seemingly impossible on their face because of the fundamental nature of the app in question. Its purpose is to show th…

I think there may be a misrepresentation here. Apple is not a court of law for Hong Kong, so they did not gather evidence and make a call.

IMHO it is far more likely that a representative from the mentioned Hong Kong government agency reached out to ask the app to be removed for the reasons given, and Apple complied with their request. If I'm correct, Apple is taking the supplied information at face value and also as a formal (legal) request.

In that light, the reason for the (internal) statement here is due to the press this app already received and because many employees of Apple have a humanitarian interest in Hong Kong - or even have friends and family who live there.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#369

Post by scarface74 »

kerkeslager wrote: post #348
scarface74 wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially seeing the app doesn’t do anything that the website can’t do.

Did you visit the website? It's hella slow. I imagine the app cached a lot of the map data locally and used a native renderer.

Isn't that more of implementation detail? I've seen a few browser based game demos that work well on the iPhone and caching can also be done on mobile. While an app may be better for low end Android phones from an optimization standpoint, there are no "low end" iPhones that have been introduced since 2013 that wouldn't have a decent enough processor to handle a web based, optimized app.

I don't believe that more people -- especially on HN -- are focusing less on the web as a means to get around the "wall garden" than focusing on sideloading.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#370

Post by dwaite »

idlewords wrote: post #294
Despegar wrote: post #26

Gruber is taking Ceglowski and HKmap.live's comments at face value, but they aren't disinterested actors. They both have (admirable) agendas in the pro-democracy protests. Of course they're going to characterize the app in the best light possible (it's so you can avoid the protests and avoid inadvertently running into cops). Apple most likely did get legitimate examples of the app being used for that, and that was al…

People who disagree with my characterization of the app can still ask themselves why Tim Cook can't point to any Hong Kong law the app contravenes, even thought he claims it is illegal.

> even thought he claims it is illegal.

citation?

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