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The Puzzles of Thermopylae

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Re: The Puzzles of Thermopylae

#11

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

anigbrowl wrote: post #3

This is an oddly shallow article. The Persian army, whatever its exact size, was vast; too vast to have travelled by sea, instead marching overland into Greece. The Persian fleet's job was to supply them with food and other necessities, as the army was too large to live off the land. It is reasonable to view Thermopylae as a delaying maneuver, although due to political differences between the Athenians and the Sparta…

>> Incidentally, the popular book/film 300, which focuses heavily on the bravery and martial ethos of the Spartans, instead depicts the Persian fleet as being destroyed by a storm prior to the decisive battle.

The Persians did lose a lot of ships in two storms, before the battle at Artemision:

Simultaneous with the battle at Thermopylae, an Allied naval force of 271 triremes defended the Straits of Artemisium against the Persians.[126] Directly before Artemisium, the Persian fleet had been caught in a gale off the coast of Magnesia, losing many ships, but could still probably muster over 800 ships at the start of the battle.[127] On the first day (also the first of the Battle of Thermopylae), the Persians detached 200 seaworthy ships, which were sent to sail around the eastern coast of Euboea. These ships were to round Euboea and block the line of retreat for the Allied fleet.[127] Meanwhile, the Allies and the remaining Persians engaged in the late afternoon, the Allies having the better of the engagement and capturing 30 vessels.[127] That evening, another storm occurred, wrecking the majority of the Persian detachment which had been sent around Euboea.[128]

Re: The Puzzles of Thermopylae

#12

Post by NamTaf »

Dan Carlin I feel does a relatively good job at covering this battle within the broader context of the war in his Hardcore History podcast. Specifically, in his three-part series King of Kings. Don’t ask me which one, as it’s been well over a year since I listened to it, but he does make a reasonable attempt at drawing out some logic for why the rearguard stayed and died. If I recall correctly, one factor is that it helped buy time for the Greek city-states to retreat back and remove sources of supplies, which would stretch the Persian supply chains even further.

He paints this particular battle into the context of many others too, and tries to put some thoughts around the broader environment in which both the Greeks and Persians were making their decisions during these wars. He tells it all with his trademark engaging fascination and I really cannot recommend it highly enough. It’s part of his free releases, so you should readily find them on your podcast source of choice.

Re: The Puzzles of Thermopylae

#13

Post by dragontamer »

anigbrowl wrote: post #3

This is an oddly shallow article. The Persian army, whatever its exact size, was vast; too vast to have travelled by sea, instead marching overland into Greece. The Persian fleet's job was to supply them with food and other necessities, as the army was too large to live off the land. It is reasonable to view Thermopylae as a delaying maneuver, although due to political differences between the Athenians and the Sparta…

> Incidentally, the popular book/film 300, which focuses heavily on the bravery and martial ethos of the Spartans, instead depicts the Persian fleet as being destroyed by a storm prior to the decisive battle. This makes for a simpler story, but at a rather significant loss of historical accuracy.

I'm pretty sure the film stopped caring about historical accuracy when they created a wall out of dead bodies, samurai-ninja-trolls attacked at night, and an executioner with swords-as-arms appeared on screen.

https://300.fandom.com/wiki/Executioner

Re: The Puzzles of Thermopylae

#14

Post by dragontamer »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #9

>> Yet another puzzle is Leonidas’ decision to stay and die. That's probably the easiest question to answer: the Spartans were war-crazy. This is well-documented, and the tales of Leonida's wife asking him what to do if he doesn't return, and the 300 celebrating their own funerals, etc, are par for the course, for Spartans. Their whole society was hyper-militarised, their highest ideal was bravery in battle, to kill…

> the Spartans were war-crazy.

Consider the source. The tales being told at the time amount to war-propaganda. In practice, you want to appear as if you were a war-crazy state, but actual behavior is extremely unusual.

The modern equivalent would be looking at North Korean documentation of the North Korean military. Probably not the best source.

It would be one thing if the Persians documented the battle, because then we'd have an outside viewpoint proving the war-craziness. (Or perhaps another example: the Assyrians were well documented by many cultures of being actually war-crazy). But we only have Greek propaganda / Greek tales to tell one side of the story. Obviously, things are lost in history, and the battle of Thermopylae was not a strategic hindrance at all to the Persians. So it makes sense that it was only really documented by the Greeks.

Still, it would be nice to have some non-Greek viewpoints into the battle.

Re: The Puzzles of Thermopylae

#15

Post by talmand »

dragontamer wrote: post #13
anigbrowl wrote: post #3

This is an oddly shallow article. The Persian army, whatever its exact size, was vast; too vast to have travelled by sea, instead marching overland into Greece. The Persian fleet's job was to supply them with food and other necessities, as the army was too large to live off the land. It is reasonable to view Thermopylae as a delaying maneuver, although due to political differences between the Athenians and the Sparta…

> Incidentally, the popular book/film 300, which focuses heavily on the bravery and martial ethos of the Spartans, instead depicts the Persian fleet as being destroyed by a storm prior to the decisive battle. This makes for a simpler story, but at a rather significant loss of historical accuracy. I'm pretty sure the film stopped caring about historical accuracy when they created a wall out of dead bodies, samurai-nin…

That's not the reality of the story being told; that's the embellishments of the narrator when telling the story to the second wave of soldiers the night before battle.

Re: The Puzzles of Thermopylae

#16

Post by Archit3ch »

dragontamer wrote: post #13
anigbrowl wrote: post #3

This is an oddly shallow article. The Persian army, whatever its exact size, was vast; too vast to have travelled by sea, instead marching overland into Greece. The Persian fleet's job was to supply them with food and other necessities, as the army was too large to live off the land. It is reasonable to view Thermopylae as a delaying maneuver, although due to political differences between the Athenians and the Sparta…

> Incidentally, the popular book/film 300, which focuses heavily on the bravery and martial ethos of the Spartans, instead depicts the Persian fleet as being destroyed by a storm prior to the decisive battle. This makes for a simpler story, but at a rather significant loss of historical accuracy. I'm pretty sure the film stopped caring about historical accuracy when they created a wall out of dead bodies, samurai-nin…

It's a Zack Snyder adaptation of a graphic novel loosely inspired by the retelling of a historian criticized even during his own time for preferring drama. Did anyone expect historical accuracy?

Re: The Puzzles of Thermopylae

#17

Post by AtlasBarfed »

Despite the huge numbers, the battlefield supremacy of the greek phalanx seems to be forgotten here. 100 years after this, Alexander the Great conquered the world with the phalanx enhanced with longer spears called the sarissa.

I recall reading many descriptions of the Alexander's forces taking on armies 10x bigger than them and routing them with little losses as he conquered Persia and other lands to the east.

Alexander never conquered the Spartans, IIRC.

Re: The Puzzles of Thermopylae

#19

Post by tpchnmy »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #17

Despite the huge numbers, the battlefield supremacy of the greek phalanx seems to be forgotten here. 100 years after this, Alexander the Great conquered the world with the phalanx enhanced with longer spears called the sarissa. I recall reading many descriptions of the Alexander's forces taking on armies 10x bigger than them and routing them with little losses as he conquered Persia and other lands to the east. Alexa…

- You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city

- If

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