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Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

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Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This app specifically lists where the police are. Since when is that a crime? When news reporters cover a protest in US and show live where the police is, are they committing a crime?

It’s a crime if it’s being used to physically attack the cop.

A friend of mine is a police officer and regularly posts on Facebook about the events he's policing. By your logic, if someone used that information to track him down and attack him he's the one breaking the law?

Incidentally if he posted about a riot in our city (thankfully pretty much unheard of) he'd be carrying out exactly the same function as this app!

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#332
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment has made a really really deep impression on me. For the past several years, I’ve been a hardcore Apple loyalist only for their stance on privacy and security. It’s time to stop being deluded. I’m going to stop paying premium for apple and assume all my devices are hostile by default. What the actual fuck Apple.

I never trusted Apple, the problem is that I think they're still the best of the lot :/

[deleted]

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#333
post #46

Apple caved under pressure from China. The explanation Cook gave is not just an embarrassment, it calls into question the veracity of all of his other statements. Why should users believe that (closed source) iMessage encryption is free from backdoors when we know that Cook will dance around sensitive truths? And why should the US government be satisfied with a fully encrypted iMessage given that Apple will cave to d…

The US isn't a closed market and can't effectively eject Apple from the market. While I disagree with the choice Apple made, it's a very rational one. Permanent removal from China would probably be worse for freedom in China over 20 years, and massively worse for Apple in the short term. No company should be expected to back or foment a revolution somewhere, from my perspective they're looking out for their own beet…

No, but the US can make it hard for certain companies by imposing tariffs that hurt certain industries and “investigating” companies that get on the wrong side. Do you think a Democratic administration would target companies run by the “liberal elite” or that a Republican administration would go after churches that are supporting political candidates?

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#334
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Permanent removal from China would probably be worse for freedom in China over 20 years, Huh? > No company should be expected to back or foment a revolution somewhere, from my perspective they're looking out for their own beet interest and the best interest of their customers. Profit is not an adequate moral compass. I deeply disagree that by forming a corporation, individuals who would otherwise have ethical oblig…

Removal of an app is not enabling the violation of human rights. Now if Apple turned over the name and address of every person who had the app, that'd be the enabling of violating human rights.

Especially seeing the app doesn’t do anything that the website can’t do.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#335
post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what authoritarian governments do. They muddy the truth and make official and important sounding institutions make official statements that paint a situation in exactly they need it to be to further their own goals. I don’t understand how anybody can trust any information that comes out of the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau when the whole issue is that the HK government is no long…

So, news in a non-authoritarian country are all truth? Non-authoritarian gov never “muddy the truth and make official and important sounding institutions make official statements that paint a situation in exactly they need it to be to further their own goals” ?

This whataboutism doesn't disprove any of the GP's claims.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple was in a similar situation with the FBI asking to unlock suspected terrorist phones, and they pushed back. Let's not give them a pass here, as it's quite obvious why they're accepting the Chinese statements at face value, because of how dependent they are on the Chinese market. This is about money, not principles.

I don't think Apple deserves a pass, but removing an app from the store is not similar to creating a special version of the OS with a backdoor.

They (very quietly) created a special version of iCloud which is entirely run by a Chinese state-owned company. I don't see how that's any different to "a special version of the OS with a backdoor".

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#337

Apple caved under pressure from China. The explanation Cook gave is not just an embarrassment, it calls into question the veracity of all of his other statements. Why should users believe that (closed source) iMessage encryption is free from backdoors when we know that Cook will dance around sensitive truths? And why should the US government be satisfied with a fully encrypted iMessage given that Apple will cave to d…

> Apple caved under pressure from China. The explanation Cook gave is not just an embarrassment, it calls into question the veracity of all of his other statements. What veracity? He is a businessman in a trillion dollar company. He says what pleases the market -- the domestic and the foreign one, not his personal beliefs... The first priority is always profits or growth. If one sincerely cared for the environment fo…

>The first priority is always profits or growth.

When Apple split with Google, they did so over access to customer data. At the time wall street was salivating over the huge profits to be gained from mining customer data, and Google was dangling billions of dollars in front of Steve Jobs' face to get him to fold. He didn't, and also turned down lucrative deals offered by Facebook.

That was all at a time when user privacy was widely seen as a marginal issue, and long before big privacy breaches regularly got into the mainstream press. Apple could have made huge amounts of money, but instead they turned those deals down and instead spent billions of dollars building their own maps and engineering iMessage with end-to-end encryption. No other tech company has come even close to Apple's record on user privacy and security. I can't even think of another one that's even tried.

That's what's so upsetting for me over this HK Maps issue. I know they have a lot at stake, including the livelihoods and safety and security of thousands of employees in China, but I still think they made the wrong call on this.

iMessage is pretty secure, but there are practical limits to how secure it can be, while also enabling cloud backups and data recovery options. Here's a somewhat sensationalised take, which does go into the practical reasons for the limitations. What it doesn't point out is that if you don't enable iCloud backup (maybe just backing up to iTunes), your secure keys never go to the iCloud servers so there is actually a way to stay secure even in China.

https://medium.com/bob-kfir-tech/how-secure-is-imessage-8cc7...

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#338
post #9

Can I play devil's advocate for just a moment? Gruber asks for evidence. His only complaints seems to be the lack of evidence and a question of whether the app violates local (Hong Kong) law. Cook's memo directly addresses both of those issues: > However, over the past several days we received credible information, from the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau, as well as from users in Hong Kong, that…

This is exactly what authoritarian governments do. They muddy the truth and make official and important sounding institutions make official statements that paint a situation in exactly they need it to be to further their own goals. I don’t understand how anybody can trust any information that comes out of the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau when the whole issue is that the HK government is no long…

This is exactly what authoritarian governments do. They muddy the truth and make official and important sounding institutions make official statements that paint a situation in exactly they need it to be to further their own goals.

And how is this different than the current American administration?

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is police reporting illegal in the countries in which Waze operates? I don’t buy that HKMap did anything illegal, but asking for equivalence with an app which is doing something vaguely similar in a jurisdiction where any of those things are perfectly legal seems to be missing the point.

Ironically, Waze is owned by Google and not available in China because they did not capitulate to the Chinese government, so maybe that's a bad analogy.

Google pulled out of China because their market share and profits were non existent.
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