> that the app was being used maliciously to target individual officers for violence and to victimize individuals and property where no police are present
The email has to be fake. Lots of apps can be used in malicious ways.
Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up
281–290 of 388 posts
Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up
#282"For a company that usually measures umpteen times before cutting anything, it’s both sad and startling."
Apple measured their risk of people getting upset over a BS excuse to ban an app and compared it to the risk of pissing of the Chinese government, and made the appropriate cut. It seems to me that Apple have been incredibly careful and precise here. What's happened though is that the author of the post made the all-too-common mistake of thinking that Apple is a friendly, caring company who are "different" when it comes to things like this - they're not, they're just a regular company.
It's sad, but entirely unsurprising.
Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up
#283Can I play devil's advocate for just a moment? Gruber asks for evidence. His only complaints seems to be the lack of evidence and a question of whether the app violates local (Hong Kong) law. Cook's memo directly addresses both of those issues: > However, over the past several days we received credible information, from the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau, as well as from users in Hong Kong, that…
No one has pointed to the Hong Kong law this app is supposed to be violating, including the Hong Kong authorities, who when asked basically said "go ask Apple". Couple that with the fact that no officers have been targeted individually in Hong Kong protests since they began, and you begin to see that the whole thing sounds fishy. What is the law being broken that no one knows about, and the cases of violence no one h…
>Couple that with the fact that no officers have been targeted individually in Hong Kong protests since they began... the cases of violence no one has heard of?
This is the part I don't understand. Sky News UK has footage of protesters targetting an undercover police officer they'd discovered and setting him alight with a Molotov cocktail before trying to take his gun. It aired here on Australia's ABC News as well. (The Molotov cocktail incident happens at 0:17 https://youtu.be/VNGJK1k2MbY )
I'm with you on the other points, and I'm confident this app wasn't involved with that incident. But claiming the protestors have never been violent or targetted individual officers doesn't seem to match with reality.
(Of course, it's also worth questioning why there were undercover police with guns in the crowds in the first place.)
Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up
#284I am not surprised by this. I always thought Tim Cook talks a good talk, but fails to walk the walk when the stakes at hand is real. He’s fine with standing up to the CIA/FBI because he knows it’s good PR for business and the US government cannot do anything without a lengthy court fight that is mostly fair. Same with other US domestic issues such as DACA, sane sex marriage, etc. But when it comes to the PRC governme…
Honestly - Apple could have doubled their prices and gained 90% of the US market if he stood up to China and told the CCP to stuff it. They would have had amazing PR for decades.
The iPhone 11 entry level model starts at $699
The iPhone 11 Pro top end model starts at $1449
I don't think all the PR in the world is capable of convincing people that the new iPhones are worth $1398 - $2898
Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up
#285Can I play devil's advocate for just a moment? Gruber asks for evidence. His only complaints seems to be the lack of evidence and a question of whether the app violates local (Hong Kong) law. Cook's memo directly addresses both of those issues: > However, over the past several days we received credible information, from the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau, as well as from users in Hong Kong, that…
This is exactly what authoritarian governments do. They muddy the truth and make official and important sounding institutions make official statements that paint a situation in exactly they need it to be to further their own goals. I don’t understand how anybody can trust any information that comes out of the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau when the whole issue is that the HK government is no long…
So, news in a non-authoritarian country are all truth? Non-authoritarian gov never “muddy the truth and make official and important sounding institutions make official statements that paint a situation in exactly they need it to be to further their own goals” ?
Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up
#286"For a company that usually measures umpteen times before cutting anything, it’s both sad and startling." Apple measured their risk of people getting upset over a BS excuse to ban an app and compared it to the risk of pissing of the Chinese government, and made the appropriate cut. It seems to me that Apple have been incredibly careful and precise here. What's happened though is that the author of the post made the a…
Will a lot of westerners boycott us if bend over for China? Probably not.
Do we care enough about Hong Kong customers? Not really - they are Do we care about China? Yes, a lot. Both about the government and the 1.4 billion potential customers there!
Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up
#287"For a company that usually measures umpteen times before cutting anything, it’s both sad and startling." Apple measured their risk of people getting upset over a BS excuse to ban an app and compared it to the risk of pissing of the Chinese government, and made the appropriate cut. It seems to me that Apple have been incredibly careful and precise here. What's happened though is that the author of the post made the a…
Will a lot of westerners boycott us if bend over for China? Probably not. Do we care enough about Hong Kong customers? Not really - they are Do we care about China? Yes, a lot. Both about the government and the 1.4 billion potential customers there!
Yep that's the sad arithmetic behind capitalism - Apple are no different from any other corporation in this respect. But the problem is that people often see them as friendly and caring, when they maybe should step back and realise that such corporations are not their friends, don't care about them and would sell them out in an instant if it benefit them.
Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up
#288And I’m sure that China could just block or otherwise disable this app or just go kill the protesters if they wanted. But that’s not what they wanted. They wanted Tim Cook to drink a cup of Xi’s diarrhea in public and Cook happily did it.
Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up
#289Apple caved under pressure from China. The explanation Cook gave is not just an embarrassment, it calls into question the veracity of all of his other statements. Why should users believe that (closed source) iMessage encryption is free from backdoors when we know that Cook will dance around sensitive truths? And why should the US government be satisfied with a fully encrypted iMessage given that Apple will cave to d…
>Apple caved under pressure from China. The explanation Cook gave is not just an embarrassment, it calls into question the veracity of all of his other statements.
What veracity? He is a businessman in a trillion dollar company. He says what pleases the market -- the domestic and the foreign one, not his personal beliefs...
The first priority is always profits or growth.
If one sincerely cared for the environment for example, would stop tons things that Apple is doing, not just one. The CEO of a multinational churning consumer gadgets by the shit-loads only cares for the environment to the degree that said caring doesn't impact the bottom line.
>Why should users believe that (closed source) iMessage encryption is free from backdoors when we know that Cook will dance around sensitive truths?
Well, that's an easier thing to answer, because there would be leaks from Apple employees (NSA had leaks, for Apple it would be many times easier) if that was the case. Tons of engineers would know.
>And why should the US government be satisfied with a fully encrypted iMessage given that Apple will cave to demands given enough pressure?
Because Apple will also cave to their demands.
Besides it's another thing to please some foreign customer by caving in to remove an app (especially if said foreign customer is a sovereign state and the app is anti-policy -- companies are not in some obligation from the US or otherwise to side with protesters), and another thing to e.g. cave in to China and give them a backdoor to iMessage as you seem to imply as a potentiality. In fact the latter would be treason (or close) for a US-based company and have much more serious repercussions...
Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up
#290Earlier quoted context omitted.
Absolutely. The problem with Apple's, and many other companies, early response policies is it depends on the source of truth, such as the police, not being complicit. If they always wait for a court order, PR disasters happen, and polticians dredge up 'think of the children' arguments. If they don't wait for an order they can become part of the machinery of ill-intentioned polticial or commercial forces. Damned if th…
I totally agree. But there is a point you may not aware. Government, law enforcement and court are not separated in China, they all belonging to the same central government. So if you really want a court order, they’ll issue one quickly. That’s the tricky situation. Companies must obey local laws, but local laws are built on behalf of central government, and court exists for protecting central government.
No problem with that. I presume gp focused on a court order since that's the way it works in his local culture. The important part is Apple not acting as their own arbitrator.
If the order came from the HK gov, citizens know who is responsible for it and can act accordingly. And I'd expect this to be the reason Apple received pressure to remove it "by themselves".