System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open-Source Firmware • Hacker News Board

Re: System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open-Source Firmware

#221

Post by tpearson-raptor » Fri, Oct 11, 2019, 7:37 AM UTC

jakeogh wrote: post #220

opan wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you already seen the MNT Reform? https://mntre.com/reform/

Heh, I hadn't either. My dream machine has 4x NVMe, 128G of soldered on RAM (with power control), a real SDR, plenty of GPIO, ADC/DAC. 2x ethernet, serial, CAN, novena style fpga, second SOC cpu with dma... basically a hacked up LX2160A (for which the design files are available... but not open as far as I can tell). I tend to stick to a box for a long time... typing this on a t420s. I dont care about the battery, jus…

Watch out for the LX2160A -- if you intend to use certain items, like any of the onboard high speed networking, you have to load blobs. This was one reason we decided (after careful consideration, which included bringing a box up and working with the firmware for a while in parallel with the POWER efforts) not to use LSI or ARM CPUs in our systems.

Your requirements probably aren't too far off of one of our Blackbird systems -- I suspect it's just the form factor (micro-ATX) that's the problem. You might even be able to do the pull plug for minutes trick with a suitably sized lithium battery tucked inside the slimline chassis. ;)

Re: System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open-Source Firmware

#222

Post by dhanvanthri » Fri, Oct 11, 2019, 7:40 AM UTC

dhanvanthri wrote: post #204

These computers runs blobs in the firmware and are not fully open source. I understand that modern users want modern performance, and that there is only a niche market for a librebooted computer (mostly due to performance), and as a company, it's systems76's responsibility to meet the market. But solutions exist, and if you are trying to market an open source computer, then give me an open source computer. What I hat…

I'm not able to update my post, so I'll leave my edit here:

EDIT:

If I wanted an ALMOST foss laptop, I would buy a laptop and coreboot it myself. The reason that it's exciting for a company to be doing something like this is because they have leverage in their decisions that I don't as a customer (custom cpu, custom components, choosing components with open firmware that already have good interoperability on the platform etc)

Re: System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open-Source Firmware

#223

Post by dhanvanthri » Fri, Oct 11, 2019, 7:41 AM UTC

rapsey wrote: post #214

dhanvanthri wrote: post #204

These computers runs blobs in the firmware and are not fully open source. I understand that modern users want modern performance, and that there is only a niche market for a librebooted computer (mostly due to performance), and as a company, it's systems76's responsibility to meet the market. But solutions exist, and if you are trying to market an open source computer, then give me an open source computer. What I hat…

> that there is only a niche market for a librebooted computer (mostly due to performance), and as a company, it's systems76's responsibility to meet the market They have no responsibility of the sort.

I just meant in terms of aligning with their profit motive; i guess the correct word is incentive, rather than responsibility. I see your point

Re: System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open-Source Firmware

#224

Post by tpearson-raptor » Fri, Oct 11, 2019, 7:42 AM UTC

Iv wrote: post #219

tpearson-raptor wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: why do you consider System76 to be building new roads by using locked hardware and offering partial open source firmware for it? Wouldn't the new roads kudos be more appropriately given to all of the folks that made real open hardware happen (RISC-V, OpenPOWER, etc.) years before this partly-open-source system announcement went out? In my mind the RISC-V folks especially were real trailblazers in thi…

Because not everything is about FSF-purity standards. Running a profitable company while providing as many open packages as possible is commendable. Pushing to open more is. But jeez, would it hurt to show some love to people who genuinely do care at least a bit about open firmware? And yes, a lot of us do love OSS but also have clients who require windows compatibility. Some of us do deep learning and need good GPU/…

I still don't understand why you would even care about the firmware if you're running Windows. To me, that would be like building a fortified, ultra-secure rear doorway into a run down barn with a gaping hole where the front doors used to be.

If these efforts were even potentially likely to result in open x86 systems someday, I wouldn't be as opposed to them as I am now. But when you have both x86 silicon vendors on record as being contractually and legally unable, let alone unwilling, to allow owner control, all I see is a massive waste of effort with a known incomplete (i.e. partly closed) endgame. Worse, that effort is detracting from other efforts that are providing fully open computing right now, today.

My recommendation has always been to use the commodity x86 world's greatest advantage if you have to use Windows: cost. Get the absolute cheapest possible Windows system you can find that still has enough power to support your clients, plan on replacing it every so often as Windows churns along, and actually invest in a secure, open computer for everything else.

x86 is a closed ISA with closed, locked, signed firmware. All appearances are that it will stay that way permanently, with just enough late-stage open firmware allowed to create sufficient marketing confusion in less technical circles. Why not select and embrace one of the open ISAs for non-Windows computing? Who knows, you might be helping make secure / non-hostile computing happen on a large scale just a little bit faster! :)

Re: System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open-Source Firmware

#225

Post by rvense » Fri, Oct 11, 2019, 7:45 AM UTC

tpearson-raptor wrote: post #207

tpearson-raptor wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: why do you consider System76 to be building new roads by using locked hardware and offering partial open source firmware for it? Wouldn't the new roads kudos be more appropriately given to all of the folks that made real open hardware happen (RISC-V, OpenPOWER, etc.) years before this partly-open-source system announcement went out? In my mind the RISC-V folks especially were real trailblazers in thi…

To the downvoters: I'm guessing you wanted to run Windows 10 "safely" somehow, or sandbox your games. There's almost no other reason to be this stuck on x86; at the end of the day it's just a consumer architecture that some well known privacy disrespecting software requires to run. It's not even that great of an architecture from a technical perspective, it just happens to have the financial weight of the prosumer ma…

I gave that comment a downvote because I thought it was disrespectful.

System76 have been providing practical solutions for running free software on available hardware for years now. That does indeed deserve kudos, even from you.

Keeping a kilowatt of computing power running at all times at home and connecting to it with a dumb ChromeOS terminal as you're suggesting is quite honestly not a viable solution for many people. And excluding practicalities (which a real person, of course, cannot) it might even be worse for security depending on your threat model.

Re: System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open-Source Firmware

#226

Post by jakeogh » Fri, Oct 11, 2019, 7:46 AM UTC

tpearson-raptor wrote: post #221

jakeogh wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh, I hadn't either. My dream machine has 4x NVMe, 128G of soldered on RAM (with power control), a real SDR, plenty of GPIO, ADC/DAC. 2x ethernet, serial, CAN, novena style fpga, second SOC cpu with dma... basically a hacked up LX2160A (for which the design files are available... but not open as far as I can tell). I tend to stick to a box for a long time... typing this on a t420s. I dont care about the battery, jus…

Watch out for the LX2160A -- if you intend to use certain items, like any of the onboard high speed networking, you have to load blobs. This was one reason we decided (after careful consideration, which included bringing a box up and working with the firmware for a while in parallel with the POWER efforts) not to use LSI or ARM CPUs in our systems. Your requirements probably aren't too far off of one of our Blackbird…

Yep it's totally the form factor. I looked at it again when I found that NXP system (thanks to #olimex:)... half considered asking about getting rid of the ram slots, ATX connector, PCI's and various tower plugs and adding the ability to run 4+ drives while still fitting it in a laptop-ish case. Also as far as I can tell, you dont provide the design files... yet:) I'm throughly excited about your systems, but I dont need a desktop (or another 24+bay box) atm. I would expect to spend ~$4k for the board.

Re: System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open-Source Firmware

#227

Post by tpearson-raptor » Fri, Oct 11, 2019, 7:52 AM UTC

rvense wrote: post #225

tpearson-raptor wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the downvoters: I'm guessing you wanted to run Windows 10 "safely" somehow, or sandbox your games. There's almost no other reason to be this stuck on x86; at the end of the day it's just a consumer architecture that some well known privacy disrespecting software requires to run. It's not even that great of an architecture from a technical perspective, it just happens to have the financial weight of the prosumer ma…

I gave that comment a downvote because I thought it was disrespectful. System76 have been providing practical solutions for running free software on available hardware for years now. That does indeed deserve kudos, even from you. Keeping a kilowatt of computing power running at all times at home and connecting to it with a dumb ChromeOS terminal as you're suggesting is quite honestly not a viable solution for many pe…

That may be. However, I was using Linux on bog-standard computers before System76 was even founded -- preinstalling Linux on a computer isn't exactly revolutionary, and it's in a completely different league from the work that has been required to bring up entire new CPUs (!) to compete with the increasingly locked x86 systems.

No idea where you're getting a kilowatt from. My desktop uses maybe 120W or so, with a lot of that going to the AMD GPU.

If we're going to trade barbs over ecological damage, what happens to all those Intel and AMD systems that would have been useable if they had just had updates to the locked/signed firmware, but are instead floating around in landfills because the vendor decided they wanted to enforce their control and not issue security updates?

Re: System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open-Source Firmware

#228

Post by rvense » Fri, Oct 11, 2019, 7:53 AM UTC

ggreer wrote: post #191

dorfsmay wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I needed to upgrade my x220. The newer X series is almost as big as the T series, and is really limited in terms of memory. I ended up getting a T480 which is nice at home, but too big on the road. I looked really hard at System76, but I need a trackpoint. I also looked at the x210, and at the time I thought that was too much work, I'm starting to think it might be worth it.

My biggest issue with the x210 is that it's hard to find decent batteries. All the 3rd party batteries I've bought have degraded to <50% of their design capacity within 6 months. I need to buy some decent 18650 cells and replace the low quality ones in the aftermarket batteries.

I have this exact problem, both me and my wife are still on X200s, but we've only one decent battery between us, and that's unlikely to last long.

Is replacing the cells enough, though? Isn't there a controller that needs resetting as well?

Re: System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open-Source Firmware

#229

Post by tpearson-raptor » Fri, Oct 11, 2019, 7:55 AM UTC

jakeogh wrote: post #226

tpearson-raptor wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watch out for the LX2160A -- if you intend to use certain items, like any of the onboard high speed networking, you have to load blobs. This was one reason we decided (after careful consideration, which included bringing a box up and working with the firmware for a while in parallel with the POWER efforts) not to use LSI or ARM CPUs in our systems. Your requirements probably aren't too far off of one of our Blackbird…

Yep it's totally the form factor. I looked at it again when I found that NXP system (thanks to #olimex:)... half considered asking about getting rid of the ram slots, ATX connector, PCI's and various tower plugs and adding the ability to run 4+ drives while still fitting it in a laptop-ish case. Also as far as I can tell, you dont provide the design files... yet:) I'm throughly excited about your systems, but I dont…

Yep, I figured as much. We'd love to do a laptop, we're literally just stalled on the GPU. This is where a consortium of ODMs and OEMs could possibly effect change, the combined buying power is probably enough to get custom GPU silicon sans-DRM and locking created. Only question is, does enough willpower exist from the other ostensibly open vendors at this time to actually work toward that goal with us? ;)

Re: System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open-Source Firmware

#230

Post by madez » Fri, Oct 11, 2019, 7:56 AM UTC

tpearson-raptor wrote: post #207

tpearson-raptor wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: why do you consider System76 to be building new roads by using locked hardware and offering partial open source firmware for it? Wouldn't the new roads kudos be more appropriately given to all of the folks that made real open hardware happen (RISC-V, OpenPOWER, etc.) years before this partly-open-source system announcement went out? In my mind the RISC-V folks especially were real trailblazers in thi…

To the downvoters: I'm guessing you wanted to run Windows 10 "safely" somehow, or sandbox your games. There's almost no other reason to be this stuck on x86; at the end of the day it's just a consumer architecture that some well known privacy disrespecting software requires to run. It's not even that great of an architecture from a technical perspective, it just happens to have the financial weight of the prosumer ma…

Let me take this opportunity to ask you a question here after you making clear the problems you see.

Hardware becomes more complex and can include internal software that from a user perspective is just part of the hardware. But in fact, it is software running doing complex things outside of the oversight and control of the user.

Do you have plans to not just have open software but also open hardware? Do you hope to offer a device in the future with not just free software, but with the source files of the integrating hardware like the motherboard as well as of the chips like CPU and auxiliary ICs? Do you see a possibility to start with an open RSIC-V CPU?