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tyler.io

471–480 of 571 posts

Re: Broken

#471
post #432
post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Getting and keeping a Linux Desktop in good working order is harder than it should be at this age of Linux. Maybe because all the developers ran away to Macs, instead of sticking around dogfooding and fixing bugs? Free software is a collaborative social enterprise - it's not really anyone's job to make free stuff for you to use. If, as a developer, you've taken the easy path of proprietary software for years, and n…

Well said, no pain no gain. If your not prepared to walk away from proprietary software and deal with the rough edges then you're a captive audience and the creators of the proprietary software have no incentive to improve. And let's face it, most of these "rough edges" are just excuse making, the sound exactly like the sort of things people say to avoid losing weight, quitting smoking, etc.

> And let's face it, most of these "rough edges" are just excuse making, the sound exactly like the sort of things people say to avoid losing weight, quitting smoking, etc.

In this comment you sound like you're absolutely convinced that linux is the best in every way, and as if linux is a goal, rather than tool to you.

If these rough edges are "excuses" not to use the tool, then how is that not a perfectly legitimate reason not to use it?

This is coming from someone that has linux as a daily driver by the way. I think over the years a lot of these rough edges have gone away, but some are still there. Sound configuration, multiple screen setup or gaming are just a couple of big examples that are still jarring and sometimes don't work right and would absolutely be a turn off for normal users, and a valid reason even for devs to say they don't want this.

People make it sound like these excuses are "entitled" from devs who don't want to contribute, but that just reveals that they think they're entitled to that dev's contribution, which is not true.

Re: Broken

#472

Things are so broken here at Apple. I joined about 4 years ago. I am awed by the fact that we manage to release any software at all, let alone functional software. The biggest problem is communication. No one fucking communicates. - No communication between orgs. Tons of bureaucratic tape to cut through just to get a hand on someone working on a different product - Barely any communication between teams. Literally ev…

> No one fucking communicates.

We all laughed when Tim Cook said that Apple will double-down on secrecy[1]. Who's laughing now? Turns out he was dead serious.

[1] https://www.cnet.com/news/tim-cook-were-going-to-double-down...

Re: Broken

#473
> The point I was hoping (but probably failed) to make

In the the author reads this: you can definitely rest assured you very well made your point, at least for me! :-)

Re: Broken

#474

> The final (well, first) Catalina release along with the outright awful public beta makes me think one thing. And that is Apple’s insistence on their annual, big-splash release cycle is fundamentally breaking engineering. I know I’m not privy to their internal decision making and that software features that depend on hardware releases and vice-versa are planned and timed years (if not half-decades) in advance, but I…

I've been at Adobe at a time when they shipped Creative Suite, as boxes (even though downloads started to be more prevalent, it was still very much pre-packaged software). People don't give Adobe enough credit for what it was achieving back then - every 18 months, like clockwork, it shipped an entire suite of huge applications, that needed to work well with one another. And they couldn't rely on post-release fixes - because US accounting regulations made it impossible to ship fixes after the GM builds, if I remember correctly. And they did it. Reliably so - at least until CS6 (with the subscription, things changed, you can now ship fixes anytime). What's more impressive than the fact that they did it, is that from the engineering perspective, it was an "of course we'll do it" - there wasn't at any point any doubt that CSnext will be released, and will be released on time. And it had to be awesome - the entire company depended on it.

Thing is, there was nothing really special that Adobe did and I haven't witnessed elsewhere. Extensive testing, pre-releases/ getting the most loyal users involved early. Waterfall, yes - but "waterfall done right" (I don't think the overhead was too onerous). What they probably did "specially" though, even though it sounds mundane and boring... was to relentlessly cut scope. It was no shame to do less than what you initially planed for - but it was a crime to not say ASAP that you may not be able to do what you promised. I know personally of a feature that didn't ship in CS5, at all, because it was deemed "not ready" (even though at the start it was deemed as "required"); almost brought down a development center (that was supposed to ship it), and their biggest sin was not that they weren't ready, but that they didn't say so until it was too late.

The short version of all this, I guess, is that cutting scope can do miracles. I'm surprised that it's not used more widely - and somewhat saddened that even Adobe lost its skill at this (from my pov, the cloud has enticed the management to ship features that are not quite ready yet, and counter-intuitively, I think this actually slows them down now).

Re: Broken

#475
post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spot on re : tooling -- likewise, I too gave up on Gnome early on, and also dislike KDE [too heavy] -- a friend turned me on to LXDE and it's been smooth sailing since

If you haven't tried KDE Plasma in the last year or two, it's worth revisiting. I tentatively tried KDE 4.x back when it was the hot thing, and was disgusted by how it seemed to bring even a top-spec gaming desktop to its knees. Now I run Plasma 5 on my laptop (on Void Linux - I feel that package maintainers make a big difference here), and it's far and away the best desktop experience I've ever had. I've finally rec…

Agreed. I have always chased my tail when it comes to distros, and when it finally came around to checking out kde (¡again) the plasma version was really an awesome surprise. It still has a few warts, but it's the prettiest/cohesive of them all.

Re: Broken

#476
post #203

It's all very depressing. Like most of us here, I have become increasingly frustrated with the state of Mac (touch bar, bad keyboards, odd choices that fit neither creators nor developers well, and so on). No point rehashing it all. But where does that leave us? I spent a year on Windows 10 not so long ago, on upper end laptop hardware with HiDPI screen, and it was less fun and more problem prone than macOS - especia…

> Getting and keeping a Linux Desktop in good working order is harder than it should be at this age of Linux.

I use desktop Linux as my daily driver (personal and work), and generally have very few problems. I hear so much grief from friends and colleagues who are running macOS and have so many issues. I really don't want to be "that guy" who obnoxiously pushes desktop Linux, understating its usability issues for average users, so I decided to log some of the issues I had over time.

I realized that the failures on Linux, while fewer, were usually much worse: the things that fail on macOS are either annoyances that can be ignored or worked around, or things that can be Googled and fixed (for the most part). There were certainly sometimes failures on Linux that followed that pattern, but there's another class of failures: when things failed, they failed hard. Once, I rebooted after some kernel and Xorg package updates, and Xorg just hung on startup, logged nothing useful, and only responded to SIGKILL. I did manage to fix it, but the average user would be completely lost, and, to make matters worse, would have no GUI to use to search for help on the web. They'd probably end up having to reinstall and hope for the best. That's not acceptable; that might have been a common recovery step with Windows back in the 90s, but people expect better now.

The distinction is that macOS failures are overwhelmingly solely of the type that frustrate and reduce productivity. It's very rare to run into something that grinds you to a complete halt. While desktop Linux has come a long way, and I'd (unscientifically) say there can be fewer frustrations than on macOS, there are still enough hard-stop, my-computer-is-a-brick-now failure modes to make it unsuitable for most users.

Re: Broken

#477
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should note that most developers here really do care, and that’s probably why products can be released in the first place. You have to have really dedicated people willing to cut through the organizational bullshit to get things done. All of the engineers I’ve met here are smart and innovative. Only if we could organize, things would be much better.

What do you mean when you say "organize"?

Not OP, but I'm guessing they mean something like 'make sure the right hand knows what the left hand is doing'. Making sure the effort to produce something is done collaboratively by all teams instead of each team working in isolation without coordinating with others, with the risk of duplicated effort or one team tripping up others.

Re: Broken

#478
I wonder if things are so broken, how do they manage to create world class hardware and software. Genuinely curious.

Re: Broken

#479
post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said, no pain no gain. If your not prepared to walk away from proprietary software and deal with the rough edges then you're a captive audience and the creators of the proprietary software have no incentive to improve. And let's face it, most of these "rough edges" are just excuse making, the sound exactly like the sort of things people say to avoid losing weight, quitting smoking, etc.

> And let's face it, most of these "rough edges" are just excuse making, the sound exactly like the sort of things people say to avoid losing weight, quitting smoking, etc. In this comment you sound like you're absolutely convinced that linux is the best in every way, and as if linux is a goal, rather than tool to you. If these rough edges are "excuses" not to use the tool, then how is that not a perfectly legitimate…

> If these rough edges are "excuses" not to use the tool, then how is that not a perfectly legitimate reason not to use it?

Because it gets a little old seeing people reason themselves into a position where they are stuck with apple and it's the fault of linux as the GP did. If only linux were better I wouldn't have to keep buying apple.

If they aren't willing to jump ship then apple has zero incentive to change anything, so they're just stuck and unwilling to accept any way out.

> In this comment you sound like you're absolutely convinced that linux is the best in every way, and as if linux is a goal, rather than tool to you.

It is, at least getting myself off abusive proprietary software is the goal. I can write at length of the problems in linux, but at least I'm not stuck complaining about telemetry and being too lazy to do anything about it anymore. I've still got a way to go in other areas.

Re: Broken

#480
post #397
post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Getting and keeping a Linux Desktop in good working order is harder than it should be at this age of Linux. Maybe because all the developers ran away to Macs, instead of sticking around dogfooding and fixing bugs? Free software is a collaborative social enterprise - it's not really anyone's job to make free stuff for you to use. If, as a developer, you've taken the easy path of proprietary software for years, and n…

This!. Love your reply. I'm also tired of developers criticizing Linux desktop for not being friendly enough and running away to propietary systems instead of trying to help to fix what they don't like of Linux Desktop. That's the good thing of open source: don't like it? Then fix it and send me a patch and stop complaining. Its not like propietary systems where you only can complain (you can't fix)

> That's the good thing of open source: don't like it? Then fix it and send me a patch and stop complaining.

That's simultaneously a good thing and bad thing. It's good because it's possible. It's bad because when everyone is responsible for a platform's software defects, then no one is responsible.

Even if we ignore average users, and just consider developers, the overhead and learning curve is prohibitive. A frontend webdev or even a backend Java dev would probably have a really hard time tracking down and fixing an issue in Xorg or Wayland or in their touchpad driver. The relevant maintainer could likely fix it in a few hours or days if they had the available time and motivation, but the user (who just happens to be a developer in an unrelated field) would likely take many days or weeks.

Even if you match skill-sets -- say a C programmer is having trouble with some GNOME UI issue that would turn out to be a bug in a C library -- you still have a big hump to get over to contribute to a project you're not familiar with. Build system, how to safely test changes on a live system (where the normal software comes from a distro package), code organization and just learning how things work in a new code base, code style, pull request process, review process, etc. -- all of this makes it really difficult to contribute, even if the actual change is small.

I do wish more people would take the time to dig in and scratch their own itches, but I absolutely don't blame them for just wanting to be able to get their work done without having to first fix their OS and tools.

(Credentials: I use Linux as my daily driver, and have gotten frustrated by macOS as a development environment any time I've had to use it as such. I used to be an Xfce core maintainer, a decade ago. These days I mostly do Scala and Java backend dev, and consider myself quite rusty with languages like C.)

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