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Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

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Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#251

Post by defterGoose »

nabdab wrote: post #25

> Moreover, what are these incidents where protesters have targeted individual police for a premeditated attack? Can Mr. Cook point to a single example? Can anyone? The message stated that they had credible sources. That really should be enough in that type of communication. He was not trying to make a court case providing evidence he was describing the company decision to employees. Now if there actually haven’t bee…

The venue really doesn't matter considering that the source is effectively unimpeachable. Sure, it might be proper for Apple to err on the side of caution when violence is involved, but in this case, there is definitely violence on both sides, and one side (the state) definitely has the upper hand.

Plus, the idea that the app could be used for specific targeting of individual police has pretty clearly been debunked.

In the end its really just a question of whether you think Apple should be on the side of egalitarianism or unrestricted profit.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#253

Post by tlear »

dirtyid wrote: post #141
dmitrygr wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is all completely normal for a revolution in a region that wants to be independent. It's about time everyone recognized that that's what it is all about. Or did you truly believe that Hong Kong and everyone in it were okay ceasing to have freedom in 2047?

I believe 0.005% of the population can't revolt against an emerging superpower. People in the west think it's 7 million protesters when the reality is 7/1400 million. It's a fringe movement rooted in (justifiable) structural dissatisfaction expressed through bigotry against the only people who can help them. Ever considered why no protesters had the idea of waving the Chinese flag and petitioning the Chinese for chan…

Of course they can revolt, and the Emperor/King/Chairman can drown them in blood.

HK would a be a bitch to pacify, densely populated city with a ton of diaspora all over the world that can support insurgency with money, weapons etc. port that makes it easy to smuggle stuff in.

See Irish troubles for an example of how these things play out. Nobody is going quietely into the dark night. You gone have to come and take them.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#254

Post by sushicat »

dilippkumar wrote: post #188
artfulhippo wrote: post #2

Apple caved under pressure from China. The explanation Cook gave is not just an embarrassment, it calls into question the veracity of all of his other statements. Why should users believe that (closed source) iMessage encryption is free from backdoors when we know that Cook will dance around sensitive truths? And why should the US government be satisfied with a fully encrypted iMessage given that Apple will cave to d…

Your comment has made a really really deep impression on me. For the past several years, I’ve been a hardcore Apple loyalist only for their stance on privacy and security. It’s time to stop being deluded. I’m going to stop paying premium for apple and assume all my devices are hostile by default. What the actual fuck Apple.

Before you made such judgement you need to think why you have freedom of speech and privacy here, because they all protected by US laws. The companies here can do things against government for protecting users privacy and security is because laws protected them.

Also, the privacy people talked about these days is more focusing on how these data got stored and used by companies and advertisement agencies. They shouldn’t use your data for profit without appropriate consent.

All the companies here in US will follow court orders and hand over personal data when they required. In this case, no company can again the court and refuse to provide data.

Back to this case. You can assume your dats is safe here in the US, because it’s protected by the laws.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#255

Post by kelnos »

foobiekr wrote: post #218
morpheuskafka wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it is based on the account itself. There is no sync between the two sets of servers so that wouldn't work for them to base it on the physical location of the device.

Says Apple. Do you believe them? Apple has been kind of marginal quality wise for awhile, mostly being better than the alternative because the alternative is garbage. But their handling of this makes much of what they say suspect.

I would believe them based on technical reasons. Given that there's a special system, hosted on another company's servers, just for China, syncing non-Chinese iPhones into the Chinese iCloud system would be more work, and for what gain?

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#256

Post by lern_too_spel »

ikeboy wrote: post #237
lern_too_spel wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When did he stand up to the CIA? As far as standing up to the FBI, the impetus behind that was to cover up another lie. Apple had told customers "it's not technically feasible" for Apple to respond to data requests and got a mountain of free press for it. The FBI showed a method by which Apple could obtain the encrypted data on those devices. Soon after, that claim disappeared from Apple's "Privacy" marketing page. h…

>Complying with the data request would have given users who had their data obtained standing to sue Apple This is wrong. Complying with a court order doesn't open you up to any liability; furthermore, the users the FBI was after in this case were already dead.

> Complying with a court order doesn't open you up to any liability

It does if you've told your customers that you can't.

> the users the FBI was after in this case were already dead.

The owner of the device you're talking about was the user's (singular, not plural) living employer, but I wasn't talking about that user in the sentence you quoted.

After implementing the data extraction procedure the FBI described, Apple would have been asked to extract data from many other devices. Most of the users of those devices are alive, and some might even be innocent of the crimes that were being investigated.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#257

Post by kelnos »

mortenjorck wrote: post #113
Aloha wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US isn't a closed market and can't effectively eject Apple from the market. While I disagree with the choice Apple made, it's a very rational one. Permanent removal from China would probably be worse for freedom in China over 20 years, and massively worse for Apple in the short term. No company should be expected to back or foment a revolution somewhere, from my perspective they're looking out for their own beet…

> Permanent removal from China would probably be worse for freedom in China over 20 years If there is one myth that the past couple of weeks have conclusively debunked, it is the idealistic conceit that the presence of western businesses in the Chinese market will inevitably liberalize China.

Past couple of weeks? Developing China's economy and integrating it into world markets with the expectation that it would liberalize China has been a pipe dream for a good 30+ years now.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#258

Post by sushicat »

eddieplan9 wrote: post #177
Aloha wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US isn't a closed market and can't effectively eject Apple from the market. While I disagree with the choice Apple made, it's a very rational one. Permanent removal from China would probably be worse for freedom in China over 20 years, and massively worse for Apple in the short term. No company should be expected to back or foment a revolution somewhere, from my perspective they're looking out for their own beet…

I honestly don't care when Apple complies with local law a la iCloud China. I think that is disappointing but completely reasonable, whether we agree with the law or not. However, Hong Kong is a special administration region, and has historically enjoyed high level of judicial independence. When Apple takes the clue from a Chinese government newspaper - not even a legal request - and do the CCP's bidding proactively,…

Taiwan and Hong Kong are totally different cases.

Taiwan is an independent country, no matter Chinese gov admits it or not. It has their own government, laws, military etc.

Hong Kong is not, it’s only a special area belonging to China. When British handed it over to China years ago, China promised the situation will not change for 50 years. Although it’s a lie, it shows that China will have full control of HK eventually.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#259

Post by dpau »

kelnos wrote: post #255
foobiekr wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Says Apple. Do you believe them? Apple has been kind of marginal quality wise for awhile, mostly being better than the alternative because the alternative is garbage. But their handling of this makes much of what they say suspect.

I would believe them based on technical reasons. Given that there's a special system, hosted on another company's servers, just for China, syncing non-Chinese iPhones into the Chinese iCloud system would be more work, and for what gain?

it could also be argued that the current system of partnering with a chinese government backed partner company is more work. in these systems efficiency is only one consideration, abiding by the laws and regulations of the host country is another. however in this case from what i've read your icloud data is tied to the account's country.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#260

Post by wonnage »

Thorrez wrote: post #247
wonnage wrote: post #244

China isn't like the US, where Apple can use their trillions and lawyer up. China will just shut you down and take your shit. Guess where hkmap.live and the Chinese App Store employees responsible for approving it end up when that happens. Similarly if the "moral" thing for these companies to do is to divest from China, then HK will only be served by Chinese companies, and good luck trying to provide a police trackin…

>Similarly if the "moral" thing for these companies to do is to divest from China, then HK will only be served by Chinese companies Would it be possible to divest from all of China except Hong Kong?

No, because unlike Taiwan, Hong Kong is internationally recognized (as well as by its own government) as a part of China. The Qing government declared a war on drugs in the 1800s, and started seizing and destroying British opium shipments. The British retaliated by occupying HK and forced the Qing to cede it, resulting in a 99 year lease. So while the other concessions were returned to China after the modern era began, Hong Kong remained British until 1997.

Come 1997, the Brits tried to tie various conditions on the return, mostly around them maintaining control over the government despite the territory now being owned by China. These were made under the guise of protecting freedom, but arguments can be made that they were just trying to hold on to some power. Given relative weakness of China at the time, they eventually agreed to this One Country, Two Systems compromise you might've heard of.

All this is to say, it's complicated; China has actually adhered to most aspects of it to date - there's no Great Firewall, HKers have their own passports, various freedoms of speech and assembly you'd be familiar with in the West. But it has no sovereignty of its own, and is very vulnerable to China encroaching on its citizens.

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