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Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

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Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#161

Post by dmix »

bduerst wrote: post #146
mercutio2 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is police reporting illegal in the countries in which Waze operates? I don’t buy that HKMap did anything illegal, but asking for equivalence with an app which is doing something vaguely similar in a jurisdiction where any of those things are perfectly legal seems to be missing the point.

Ironically, Waze is owned by Google and not available in China because they did not capitulate to the Chinese government, so maybe that's a bad analogy.

The police and their unions have complained a lot in western countries about Waze. It’s a very controversial feature to them too. Which shows what type of government they’d build if we keep saying yes to them.

This app is excluded to HK as well, it’s not like they have to appease China by proxy considering their app stores are already different.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#162

Post by germainelol »

threeseed wrote: post #109
rndgermandude wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the alleged crimes allegedly abused the app (something certainly not endorsed by the app makers), the same can be said for a lot of other apps. Thieves use facebook to look for people who give details on when they are on vacation for example. Snapchat and Skype and kik and whatapp and every other social messaging and social media app and service is abused by pedo criminals grooming their victims. etc But thos…

This app specifically lists where the police are. That is its primary purpose. Comparing it to Facebook or Snapchat makes absolutely no sense.

Dude, in HK the police raise are legally obliged to raise flags to warn the public of things such as firing tear gas, dispersing crowds, illegal assembly etc. They will also post on Twitter to notify the public where and when they will disperse the public. The HK police force wants the public to know where they are, so in the context of HK, banning this app is kind of ridiculous.

Considering the brutality of the HK police force in recent months, I would argue that this app is great at providing the public with information on how to avoid being tear gassed, beaten or arrested by avoiding the police. A lot of locals have been extremely pissed off with the police force. They have gone into very residential areas and fired tear gas unnecessarily among a whole host of other things.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#163

Post by dmix »

ummonk wrote: post #103
dmix wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not ban Waze for their police reporting feature?

Incidentally, I think that measures by Uber to identify riders who are cops and deny them rides should have gotten Uber the same treatment as any other organized crime syndicate.

Incidentally to China’s authoritarianism you think companies should have their rights to who uses their services or not relinquished? What if a mall prevented undercover officers from using their property to investigate them, requesting they use public channels with it’s law or regulatory enforcement?

I’ve read a few articles on it and since 2017 no charges have been laid. So clearly Uber didn’t break any laws by enforcing their terms of service.

I’d much rather have this sort of thing be written clearly into law so whether or not they can force you to let them secretly use your service or not without identification can be constrained, limited in scope so it’s not a fishing expedition, and subsequently challenged in court.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#164

Post by germainelol »

colejohnson66 wrote: post #137
policeanman wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This app specifically lists where the police are. Since when is that a crime? When news reporters cover a protest in US and show live where the police is, are they committing a crime?

It’s a crime if it’s being used to physically attack the cop.

The police are phsyically attacking the people, it's quite different. Yes, this app helps protestors, but it also helps the public avoid being treated extremely violently by the police.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#165

Post by asdkljas »

threeseed wrote: post #109
rndgermandude wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the alleged crimes allegedly abused the app (something certainly not endorsed by the app makers), the same can be said for a lot of other apps. Thieves use facebook to look for people who give details on when they are on vacation for example. Snapchat and Skype and kik and whatapp and every other social messaging and social media app and service is abused by pedo criminals grooming their victims. etc But thos…

This app specifically lists where the police are. That is its primary purpose. Comparing it to Facebook or Snapchat makes absolutely no sense.

did you say THUGs?

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#166

Post by birdyrooster »

baddox wrote: post #44
inetsee wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first question is whether the "Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau" is a reliable source of information under the current circumstances. I haven't been reading all the news about the Hong Kong protests, but what I have been reading suggests that China is applying an enormous amount of pressure to halt the protests, or reduce the international visibility of what is happening in Hong Kong. It doesn't…

Cook's memo says that the reports, from the bureau as well as from the app's users, are "credible." That at least implies that Apple evaluated the credibility of the claims. I do understand that some people (like Gruber) might want Apple to provide material evidence, but is that really Apple's responsibility or usual behavior? It would seem extremely odd (and not at all comforting) to me if Apple, for example, releas…

What is the generally accepted criteria for "credible information"? How could Apple have communicated better about how they reviewed or corroborated the claims given by the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau?

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#168

Post by corodra »

millstone wrote: post #143
SiVal wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No point in debating the details of which tech is more secure or what is encrypted or adulterated or whatever. Apple has made it clear that they will make sure the Chinese gov't gets what it wants. Even in a supposedly "autonomous" Hong Kong, China complains and Apple submits--flags, apps, speech, whatever. No need to even go to court, and certainly no point. So Apple has made it clear that if China wants something,…

It's not "whatever." Apple has removed emoji and an app; they don't provide the government with backdoors or biometric data. There really is a line.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/ne...

2018:

"The iPhone maker’s latest Transparency Report reveals it received 32,342 demands from governments around the world to access 163,823 devices, with 80 per cent of the requests granted."

Come on, seriously? This is what they ADMIT to worldwide.

Here's on China: https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/cn.html

Again, what they admit to. And that's only on the second half of 2018. With all their regular anti-consumer practices on hardware, you're really going to imagine they're champions of individual freedoms and privacy?

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#169

Post by panic »

Despegar wrote: post #26

Gruber is taking Ceglowski and HKmap.live's comments at face value, but they aren't disinterested actors. They both have (admirable) agendas in the pro-democracy protests. Of course they're going to characterize the app in the best light possible (it's so you can avoid the protests and avoid inadvertently running into cops). Apple most likely did get legitimate examples of the app being used for that, and that was al…

> Apple most likely did get legitimate examples of the app being used for that, and that was all the pretext they needed to remove it.

If they have examples, they should share them. It would have been easy for Tim to put the dates and locations of incidents in his email. There are plenty to go around on the protestor side: look up what happened at the Prince Edward MTR station on 8/31, for example.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#170

Post by bluesix »

millstone wrote: post #143
SiVal wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No point in debating the details of which tech is more secure or what is encrypted or adulterated or whatever. Apple has made it clear that they will make sure the Chinese gov't gets what it wants. Even in a supposedly "autonomous" Hong Kong, China complains and Apple submits--flags, apps, speech, whatever. No need to even go to court, and certainly no point. So Apple has made it clear that if China wants something,…

It's not "whatever." Apple has removed emoji and an app; they don't provide the government with backdoors or biometric data. There really is a line.

Apple's iCloud servers for Chinese users are located in China, run by a Chinese tech service provider and provides them with the keys - as stipulated by the Chinese government. Of course the government has access to the data.
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