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Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

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Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#871

Post by faitswulff »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #240
faitswulff wrote: post #238

The app was reinstated: > Following the outcry, Apple decided to admit the HKmap.live app to the App Store yesterday, where it is now available to download. The app developers were happy with this outcome, saying that they believed the decision was more of a bureaucratic issue rather than a political decision and writing, “We understand @Apple have many business considerations, but since they already make thing right…

This is a follow-on to that, it's been removed again.

Ah, thanks. And very disappointing.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#872

Post by NateEag »

davrosthedalek wrote: post #726
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn't this all the same thing? Apple made a decision: "This form of speech is dangerous, so we're going to decide what our customers are allowed to see." And so Apple blocks both dangerous speech, and safe speech that could harm Apple's revenue, and safe speech that powerful individuals dislike. People always seem to think of this as a false dichotomy, so I want to emphasize again that I think Apple's curated App…

I don't think it's the same thing. Apple has at least three options: - Have a store with, say, quality control, and the option to side-load - Have a store with "quality control" (and, as I see it, some rather large levers to fight competition), no option to side-load, but don't bow to state actors - same, but bow to state actors. I wish it's the first, I thought it's the second, but we now see it's the third. I think…

Given time, the second option will always become the third.

Bowing to state actors is a decision individuals make.

If the platform gives specific people the ability to bow on behalf of everyone (as iOS does - reviewers have that power), eventually some of those people will do so.

A centralized app store must at least bow to the state actors where its business operations and servers live. Otherwise the state actors will take their hardware and remove the business from existence.

If the OS supports direct installation, then you avoid the inherent risks of centralized software.

Granted, you gain the risks of decentralized software.

Magic bullets are few and far between.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#873

Post by birdyrooster »

yourbandsucks wrote: post #857
birdyrooster wrote: post #850

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they were touting the strength of staying on message as if it actually was a beneficial thing (which it isn't). It leads to very dangerous failures in society when people cannot talk about unpopular problems. It leads to them fumbling and missing obvious truths.

It has upsides and downsides. You realize that you're criticizing someone right now for having a take on relative weaknesses of the US system? Going so far as to immediately accuse them of loyalty to another country? Not to snark too hard, but 'physician, heal thyself' comes to mind.

I certainly don't accuse them of loyalty to China. That's a straw man.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#874

Post by supernova87a »

rpmisms wrote: post #639
supernova87a wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not going to be able to. America and other classical democracies are in a phase of aging where a decline in prosperity combined with a die-hard (unthinking) application of absolute freedom of speech are paralyzing action. Everyone is disagreeing with each other over a shrinking pie, pitting demographic against demographic, and not only that, any genuine disagreement and decision making is muddied by agents try…

So, you're pro-china, or at least, you like their attitude. Good to know.

I guess I have a historical enough view that I'm not so unshakably sure that the good old USA is absolutely right in every policy. Which from your tone, you sound like you are. I'm not pro China. But I'm not die hard pro USA either.

For example, I'm not sure that the US approach to free speech or commercial regulation is the most reasonable, or even the most representative. Plenty of other countries that you probably don't criticize in general impose forms of restriction on free speech that you'd object to (if you knew).

Germany has strict censorship laws on several kinds of racially oriented speech. Singapore does too, regarding religion. Yet those are admired democracies.

And while we criticize China here for imposing restrictions that impact US companies, I might ask, where were you (or HN) when it had to do with Chinese companies? Where are all the stories about those infringements, which go on every day?

So, is the principle here that you truly object to China imposing speech regulations? Or just when it extends to an American company?

Hence my philosophical ambivalence about whether we have the right to be so indignant after becoming 10 minute experts on the subject...

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#875

Post by yourbandsucks »

birdyrooster wrote: post #873
yourbandsucks wrote: post #857

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has upsides and downsides. You realize that you're criticizing someone right now for having a take on relative weaknesses of the US system? Going so far as to immediately accuse them of loyalty to another country? Not to snark too hard, but 'physician, heal thyself' comes to mind.

I certainly don't accuse them of loyalty to China. That's a straw man.

'pro-China' was a little confusing on that score, but I did misquote you, so sorry. Cheers.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#876

Post by dang »

_eht wrote: post #703
dang wrote: post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN is a plain text site, so please don't put emojis in HN comments. Unless they're plain text of course.

Alright well that ruined the context of the commentary. Unfortunate. And now I can’t edit to make an appropriate adjustment. Neat. HN will edit your comments but not let you delete your account? Interesting precedent.

I've opened your GP comment for editing if you'd like to make an appropriate adjustment.

Account deletion is a separate question, of course. On HN we try hard to balance individual interests, such as for privacy, with community interest, such as other people's comments not losing the context they were replying to. To judge by the reactions we hear from users, we're able to care of nearly everything that nearly everyone needs. But it does require emailing us, rather than using some mechanical feature that would just erase everything an account had ever posted.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#877

Post by BLKNSLVR »

amatecha wrote: post #715
parliament32 wrote: post #597

This is why Apple will always be a second-class citizen to Android. If I have a good reason, I can toggle a setting and install APKs built by anyone. If I have a good reason, I can wipe my phone and unlock the bootloader to literally replace and de-Google the entire OS. When I buy a phone, it's a hardware product I'm buying. Just like when you buy a PC/laptop, what you run on it is your business, not the manufacturer…

That's funny: "Apple will always be a second-class citizen to Android" You don't hear about 14 million iPhones being infected by malware[0], do you? Or malware stealing users' bank credentials[1]? Heck, there are people whose brand new phone comes pre-loaded with malware[2]. Oh, this one was just posted five hours ago -- applications on the Google Play store load with trojans and spyware[3]. I can keep going, but the…

Exactly!

I'm technical so I like tinkering and don't care a whit for Apple's locked down ecosystem and it's cost of entry, so I avoid it. But I'm totally aware of the reasons Apple make their business decisions. Their loyal fan base and easy interoperability of their products is testament to this. It has brought many technological solutions into the hands of the non-technical consumer, which has benefitted us technical folks by bringing attention to what can be achieved by technology.

(I'm not crediting Apple with this in its entirety, far from it, but they brought non-technical attention to the technical arena)

Anyone on HN complaining that their iDevice doesn't give them sufficient 'freedom of ownership' is willfully ignorant of Apple's well publicized and infinitely discussed closed system strategy.

P.S. LineageOS for the win.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#878

Post by jethro_tell »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #846
jethro_tell wrote: post #835

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What steps are we talking about here that a technologist would have taken here?

Using a device that gets regular security updates.

Is that enough? It doesn't really seem like there is a lot you can do in the way of hardening a phone, either android or iPhone.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#879

Post by everdev »

s_dev wrote: post #324
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #297

And in one fell swoop, Apple has made it effectively impossible to install this app on your phone. There's no realistic workaround. † Apple should never have been capable of making such a drastic decision for all of their customers. It's one thing to make determinations about what products are allowed in your store, but quite another to unilaterally ban software from what is many people's primary computer. We live in…

>And in one fell swoop, Apple has made it effectively impossible to install this app on your phone. There's no realistic workaround. Make the app a Web App and visit it in Safari. Apple has banned it being notarized and distributed from their App Store but iPhones still have access to the conventional web which Apple has no control over.

> Make the app a Web App and visit it in Safari.

Is the web censored in HK?

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#880

Post by vatueil »

dan-robertson wrote: post #719
parliament32 wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it isn’t super easy In settings, enable "allow installation of apps from unknown sources". Then download the .apk file from your web browser / dropbox / whatever, and tap to install. It's literally a single-setting toggle to let you install any apk from anywhere. >Google quietly removing HK-protest related apps Like what? The app that Apple removed is alive and well in the Play Store: https://play.google.com/store/a…

Example here: https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/10/10/revolution-times-hong-... Though I concede that this app is more objectively pro-protestor (rather than general public safety) and the statements from google feel more like generic policy than obvious bowing to pressure.

Apparently it was removed because it included in-app purchases and there's a rule against profiting off of tragedies:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-google/...

> A Google spokesman said that “The Revolution Of Our Times” app, which lets users role-play as Hong Kong protesters, violated a long-standing policy “prohibiting developers from capitalizing on sensitive events, such as attempting to make money from serious ongoing conflicts or tragedies through a game”.

I guess if they remove the IAPs it would be okay?

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