Live data from Hacker News

Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

daringfireball.net

21–30 of 388 posts

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#21
post #9

Can I play devil's advocate for just a moment? Gruber asks for evidence. His only complaints seems to be the lack of evidence and a question of whether the app violates local (Hong Kong) law. Cook's memo directly addresses both of those issues: > However, over the past several days we received credible information, from the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau, as well as from users in Hong Kong, that…

I'm not intimate enough with any of the parties involved in this situation, so my reply will also be comfortably generic:

Yes, it's a reasonable demand. If public opinion is asking something of Apple, and its CEO chooses to answer, every aspect of the answer is open to scrutiny. Gruber indeed lists the specific evidence he would expect:

> - When was HKmap.live “used maliciously to target individual officers for violence”?

> - When was it used to “victimize individuals and property where no police are present”?

> - What local laws in Hong Kong does it violate?

It's unlikely that a CEO would be so thorough. Apple is particularly obsessed with secrecy, and tech companies in general seem to not want to disclose details when they restrict access to a product or platform.

But it's still a reasonable demand from an individual standpoint.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#22
post #10
post #6

hacker news admins should investigate the downvote patterns on articles critical of china ...there seems to be a very strong downward pressure on articles critical of china — so much that i suspect there may be a down vote ring..

Dang explained yesterday [1] that there is a "common news item" penalty to stories to avoid very hot topics from dominating the front page, but that they have removed this restrictions from some articles. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21211124

Down vote brigades are real.

So to are government shills.

Finally the mods regularly lie about their ongoing censorship policy.

Look no further then the fact that such topics cannot be discussed.

My post will be removed very quickly.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#23
post #9

Can I play devil's advocate for just a moment? Gruber asks for evidence. His only complaints seems to be the lack of evidence and a question of whether the app violates local (Hong Kong) law. Cook's memo directly addresses both of those issues: > However, over the past several days we received credible information, from the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau, as well as from users in Hong Kong, that…

This is exactly what authoritarian governments do. They muddy the truth and make official and important sounding institutions make official statements that paint a situation in exactly they need it to be to further their own goals. I don’t understand how anybody can trust any information that comes out of the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau when the whole issue is that the HK government is no longer independent.

And beyond the actions of the Chinese government, corporations like Apple have no integrity upon which to base trust for them anymore. They need to cough up real proof instead some canned response that basically tells us to trust them on blind faith alone.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#25
> Moreover, what are these incidents where protesters have targeted individual police for a premeditated attack? Can Mr. Cook point to a single example? Can anyone?

The message stated that they had credible sources. That really should be enough in that type of communication. He was not trying to make a court case providing evidence he was describing the company decision to employees.

Now if there actually haven’t been any such cases then it adds question to the sources not to Apples decision or communication.

And really you can’t expect a company like Apple to start employing foreign government spies to infiltrate government institutions in order to provide credibility checking of information provided. If the police are saying they have reports of misuse of the app and violent attacks Apple has to act on that.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#26
Gruber is taking Ceglowski and HKmap.live's comments at face value, but they aren't disinterested actors. They both have (admirable) agendas in the pro-democracy protests. Of course they're going to characterize the app in the best light possible (it's so you can avoid the protests and avoid inadvertently running into cops).

Apple most likely did get legitimate examples of the app being used for that, and that was all the pretext they needed to remove it. The real issue is that the CCP is also likely holding a gun to their head both in the state newspaper but also privately. And obviously Apple isn't going to light themselves on fire which is what people really want to see them do.

Then there's the bad faith critics that are using this as an opportunity to say they're hypocrites because they are politically active on various issues (like the encryption fight with the FBI), as if it isn't because they're protected by the rule of law in Western nations and they aren't in China.

Ultimately everyone understands this. The real original sin is the fact that the West normalized relations with China in the first place [1]. Corporations like Apple aren't going to liberate China, and they can't even if they wanted to. The US and other countries could decide tomorrow to sanction China and Apple and every other business would be unable to do business with them. They could treat China like North Korea or Iran. That's a political question for governments, not corporations.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Communiqu%C3%A9s

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#27
post #21
post #9

Can I play devil's advocate for just a moment? Gruber asks for evidence. His only complaints seems to be the lack of evidence and a question of whether the app violates local (Hong Kong) law. Cook's memo directly addresses both of those issues: > However, over the past several days we received credible information, from the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau, as well as from users in Hong Kong, that…

I'm not intimate enough with any of the parties involved in this situation, so my reply will also be comfortably generic: Yes, it's a reasonable demand. If public opinion is asking something of Apple, and its CEO chooses to answer, every aspect of the answer is open to scrutiny. Gruber indeed lists the specific evidence he would expect: > - When was HKmap.live “used maliciously to target individual officers for viole…

I'm just not sure what that evidence could look like. Like I said, don't we have sufficient evidence that this app was used to organize protests in Hong Kong, and that some protesters in Hong Kong committed violence against officers and against individuals and property where no police were present?

As for Hong Kong law, I can agree that it might be nice to cite a specific law, but I also don't find it at all difficult to believe that any government would have a law that allows the government to prohibit a communication medium that is being used to organize anti-government protests that have been sometimes violent.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#29

Apple caved under pressure from China. The explanation Cook gave is not just an embarrassment, it calls into question the veracity of all of his other statements. Why should users believe that (closed source) iMessage encryption is free from backdoors when we know that Cook will dance around sensitive truths? And why should the US government be satisfied with a fully encrypted iMessage given that Apple will cave to d…

I agree that Apple's stated rationale for removing the HKmap.live app is embarrassing and the removal is a capitulation to China's government.

The reasons China's government has decried the app are bogus, but those false reports and allegations do not originate with Apple.

However, Apple appears to be accepting those reasons at face value and probably because Apple is kowtowing.

Regarding whether iMessage is free from backdoors, Apple has given no reason for anyone to believe they are outright lying about the technical features of their software and hardware or their position regarding privacy.

In other words, Apple appears to be caving into pressure from the Chinese government and Apple are openly admitting this surrender.

However, Apple has not to date lied about what they are doing and we do not yet have a reason to doubt their representations about the security of their encryption.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#30
post #9

Can I play devil's advocate for just a moment? Gruber asks for evidence. His only complaints seems to be the lack of evidence and a question of whether the app violates local (Hong Kong) law. Cook's memo directly addresses both of those issues: > However, over the past several days we received credible information, from the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau, as well as from users in Hong Kong, that…

> His only complaints seems to be the lack of evidence

That's seriously disingenuous. His complaints is about how what Tim wrote doesn't make any sense, not about evidence. He only ask for evidence because he is logical, he knows that he may have not thought of everything and could be potentially wrong.

> The first allegation is that “the app was being used maliciously to target individual officers for violence”. This makes no sense at all. The app does not show the locations of individual officers at all. It shows general concentrations of police units, with a significant lag.

How could you explains this? I don't even need evidence, just a way for that to be possible (without outside coordination, that would be just absurd, simply use the same channel to coordinate instead).

Post reply on HN