How bullying may shape adolescent brains • Hacker News Board

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#131

Post by wallace_f » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 8:42 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #95

foobar_ wrote: post #88

One of the mindsets of the bully is assuming that the victim has something that the bully doesn't. This leads to envy, feeling of self-doubt .... which leads the bully to find the weakness of the victim and punish them for it. After punishing the bully feels "good". The goal behind their bullying behaviour is to eliminate the competition. Apart from this imitation of other bullies and impressing their peers are major…

Yup, that's exactly what narcissism is. "I can't possibly deal with being made to feel like a loser, so I will hurt those who might otherwise threaten my exaggerated ego". It's not a healthy mindset at all, it's a sign of serious pathology.

Aren't most people like this, though?

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#132

Post by wallace_f » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 8:46 PM UTC

magduf wrote: post #97

schalab wrote: post #64

Seems to me a large part of growing up is keeping up with the herd. Like a pack of zebras in the savannah. If you stray too far behind or show weakness, you get picked off by the roving lions. Now I can see utility in behavior divergent from the norm being encouraged. But at the same time, peer pressure to keep moving and keeping pace is a great motivator for growth. So, I would say the issue needs to be studied with…

>Seems to me a large part of growing up is keeping up with the herd. Like a pack of zebras in the savannah. If you stray too far behind or show weakness, you get picked off by the roving lions. Yeah, but you don't see the zebras beating the crap out of each other for being too slow. They just let the lions do it. With us humans, we don't just leave others to their own devices; instead, we take on the role of the pred…

Are most people are evil in this way? Most laugh and exhibit schadenfreude. Most of my friends who I played Simcity or GTA with were maniacal murderers in these games.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#133

Post by grimjack00 » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 8:48 PM UTC

maceurt wrote: post #100

zozbot234 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, guess what's the biggest "problem with (the) school" - the inability to get away from a bad environment. And you can't fix that with counseling alone - you actually have to figure out who the worst offenders are, and punish them consistently. The more you can deprive those folks of the social influence among their peers that's what they crave most, the better for everyone else.

"The more you can punish people who are broken socially the more they learn" Punishing a kid is not going to help them get over the fact that their mom abuses them or they don't have a dad or that they are not safe in their neighborhood, etc. Punishment is good, but it can further traumatize or ingrain a kid into their bad behavior. Speaking from personal experience, I remember in elementary school I got very harshly…

In my experience as the target of bullying, talking to the bully doesn't really work, either.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#134

Post by Der_Einzige » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 9:11 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #74

jokoon wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've never understood why schools seem so reticent to enforce zero-tolerance policies against bullying. It's pretty simple, this has a political answer: people believe that life is hard and that "it's tough out there", hence it's important for school to "toughen up" kids. It's as simple as that. Social darwinism is a creeping ideology that nobody really questions or talk about, but it's there, despite the presence…

> If you ask people "should we protect the weak?", at the end of the day, people will answer "no, it's too difficult to protect the weak" Isn't "protecting the weak" the whole point of civilized society over barbarism? Life is hard enough already, why make it even harder by tolerating aggressive and violent behavior from others? It's not "toughening up" anyone, it's creating an environment where the worst offenders a…

har har Godwins law and all that, but this comparison is pertinent

The Nazi's didn't seek to destroy Civilization (at least not in the sense that a Primitivist would), but they absolutely affirmed the ideology of "we should not protect the weak" [1] while attempting to preserve some form of "Civilized Society".

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#135

Post by mywittyname » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 9:24 PM UTC

bullied wrote: post #116

I was bullied badly as a child and am permanently suicidal, with no trusting relationships and failed life: homeless, mentally ruined, no career, assets, accomplishment, etc. It’s to the point where, decades after having said to self “people are shit and I don’t want to be alive anymore” as a child, I turned down a million dollar inheritance to keep close to a permanently suicidal self-imposed destiny. It’s difficult…

> The bullies from my childhood, on the other hand, have successful, normal lives.

There's a book called Ginger Kid which does a good job at highlighting this phenomena. The author discusses at length how the kids who made his life hell as a child went on to be respected professionals. For example, a guy who pulled a razor on him in school is now a famous rapper.

I'm sure it had some lasting effects on him, as now he's a comedian who's notable for his humiliation of audience members who heckle or distract him.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#136

Post by Der_Einzige » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 9:27 PM UTC

cmurf wrote: post #112

bane wrote: post #62

I've never understood why schools seem so reticent to enforce zero-tolerance policies against bullying. In my experience at least, every time bullying seems to be a problem at a school, it's because the environment allows it to occur. Schools will eagerly put in place various other zero-tolerance policies, like no fighting. So if you dare defend yourself against such a social predator, you are taught a lesson by such…

The problem is inconsistency, geographically and also over time. Up until perhaps 10-20 years ago, it was a beat down in the school parking lot. That was the only way to deal with bullies. Make them bleed. Today in large part to "no tolerance" policies, the victim gets equally punished for defending themselves. A beat down in a parking lot gets the police involved. And the school can expel both bully and victim if th…

>But who advocates for those who can't or won't?

The answer is literal leftist "SJWs" which is a slur to all but those who agree with the policies. Radical liberation, equality, and compassion for the weak.

Negative Utilitarian ethics about reducing suffering above all else is frequently the implicit ethical decision calculus used by: Communists, Socialists, Liberals, Harm-reduction activists, Intactivists, Feminists, Disability Rights Activists, Humanists, among others.

If you are in the role of a bullied individual, your best friend is the one advocating for a more systemically equal and just system.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#137

Post by enneff » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 9:44 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #62

I've never understood why schools seem so reticent to enforce zero-tolerance policies against bullying. In my experience at least, every time bullying seems to be a problem at a school, it's because the environment allows it to occur. Schools will eagerly put in place various other zero-tolerance policies, like no fighting. So if you dare defend yourself against such a social predator, you are taught a lesson by such…

Teachers are often the ringleaders of the bullying in my experience.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#138

Post by jdashg » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 9:46 PM UTC

intarga wrote: post #66

bane wrote: post #62

I've never understood why schools seem so reticent to enforce zero-tolerance policies against bullying. In my experience at least, every time bullying seems to be a problem at a school, it's because the environment allows it to occur. Schools will eagerly put in place various other zero-tolerance policies, like no fighting. So if you dare defend yourself against such a social predator, you are taught a lesson by such…

I think the problem is difficulty defining bullying. Fighting is easy, if you hit someone then you broke the rules, but bullying has a much more blurry line. At my school there was some attempt to crack down on bullying, but instances of bullying were regularly dismissed or reframed as "just banter".

If someone's banter is making someone else's life worse, it's not just banter.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#139

Post by reduceacc » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 9:53 PM UTC

bullied wrote: post #116

I was bullied badly as a child and am permanently suicidal, with no trusting relationships and failed life: homeless, mentally ruined, no career, assets, accomplishment, etc. It’s to the point where, decades after having said to self “people are shit and I don’t want to be alive anymore” as a child, I turned down a million dollar inheritance to keep close to a permanently suicidal self-imposed destiny. It’s difficult…

There's every reason to be negative and cynical when you've had experiences like yours which also shape the lens of your current interactions.

In saying that, I don't believe it's popular in HN but you might find some usefulness in lectures by Dr. Jordan Peterson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSZQjMesALM - why everything you do matters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c9Uu5eILZ8 - advice for people with depression

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui2MGEdBL2A

I picked out three of these that I think give a decent overflow on some of his central ideas.

Some people view his videos for different reasons, like commentary on cultural war issues in the west, or his studies into the societal causes of authoritarianism.

However, many are mainly interested in his lectures on how you can start to claw back some meaning in your life by focusing on adding a little order to small things, and then increasing that little by little over time.

There's no suggestions to abandon medicine if it can help you, or to avoid professionals who can assist you in this.

Rather than taking the usual self-help route of trying to lead with saying how awesome life is, his writings often explore the reasons people can rationally come to the conclusion that life is meaningless suffering and that we should instead pursue pleasure at all costs because of it. Despite appearing rational on the surface, he then goes on to explore how that can actually lead to an empty vessel of a human experience.

By focusing on restoring order a little a time, it's thought that you can reduce suffering just a little, and that despite the nihilistic thoughts, reducing suffering can only be a good thing for both you and anyone you connect with.

There's a big focus on mythology and literature (pinocchio, peter pan etc), but it's usually a mechanism to convey the wisdom they try to distill.

I wish you well in finding some meaning, it can be a long journey without help and hopefully the videos provide a starting point.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#140

Post by bigred100 » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 10:12 PM UTC

burntoutfire wrote: post #44

harlanji wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds right. I was always talented and successful until 2014 when I started getting bullied, when I moved to SF. It’s been downhill since then. I’m now homeless with faded skills and vocabulary and no confidence. Feels like I’ll never get back to a normal life, and indeed at each job the bullying has become more intense and flagrant.

You need to work for normal company (not brogrammers startups). At most places, there is simply no bullying, so your problem will solve itself.

This is one reason I think big dreams and ambitions are a liability. Being a competent worker with a reasonable work ethic, putting money in your 401k, and making sure you’ve got other options if something goes wrong doesn’t leave a lot of openings for bullying. Nobody is going to bully Stanley from the Office and you’d look like a moron for trying.