How bullying may shape adolescent brains • Hacker News Board

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#111

Post by peterangular » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 4:44 PM UTC

fortran77 wrote: post #53

I wonder if the people with these brain differences were more susceptible to bullying because of the social cues they express. So it's not bullying shaping brains, it's different types of brains get bullied more. Perhaps they should look at the brains of bullies, too.

No. Just no.

It's the outcast like other folks are saying. It's just "different" - could be anything: small stature, sensitivity, socioeconomic status, race, religion, expressing that you enjoy learning, your mom sewing your clothes, whatever... If you're the minority of a population you're a target and putting it on "brain differences" makes me scoff.

You're just a rung on a social ladder that other people are willing to step on time and time again to make sure that they're not at the bottom.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#112

Post by cmurf » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 4:53 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #62

I've never understood why schools seem so reticent to enforce zero-tolerance policies against bullying. In my experience at least, every time bullying seems to be a problem at a school, it's because the environment allows it to occur. Schools will eagerly put in place various other zero-tolerance policies, like no fighting. So if you dare defend yourself against such a social predator, you are taught a lesson by such…

The problem is inconsistency, geographically and also over time. Up until perhaps 10-20 years ago, it was a beat down in the school parking lot. That was the only way to deal with bullies. Make them bleed. Today in large part to "no tolerance" policies, the victim gets equally punished for defending themselves. A beat down in a parking lot gets the police involved. And the school can expel both bully and victim if there was a fight.

I never had the imagination for shooting up a school when I was a kid. But now that I'm an adult, I totally get it. When trust and civility break down, there are no more rules. Child victims have already been betrayed, and have had normal coping mechanisms inhibited. Sorta like punishing a dog for growling, all you do is teach them to be silent until they bite without warning.

Why shoot your classmates? To make the parents suffer. All of them. Why? For raising bad children who are bullies. For having created such a perverted system of adults with no meaningful arbitration or advocacy or fairness. Make them suffer forever. It's a permanent, enduring, ultimate vindictiveness. It is intentionally disproportionate. From the child's point of view: I don't trust this system and neither should you, let me demonstrate betrayal to you. The idea that school shooters don't know what they're doing, or is temporary insanity, I think is absurd. For sure they lack mental discipline and coping mechanisms. But then, I'm not an expert in the psychology of it all, but I was a victim. Parking lot beat down pretty much solved it for me. But who advocates for those who can't or won't?

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#113

Post by leoc » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

I used to worry about this kind of thing, but after a while obverving the primate social behaviours on display on journalist/pundit/etc. Twitter I'm starting to be more worried about the damaging psychological effects of not being bullied enough at school. (Just half-joking.)

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#114

Post by AiApotheosis » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 5:05 PM UTC

redleggedfrog wrote: post #77

empath75 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it started with bullying from my mom and continued with bullying in school. The only thing that pulled me out of it was time and MDMA. I don’t think I got my shit together until my mid 30s. Now I’ve got a family and a successful career. But I could have very easily have ended up drunk in a gutter somewhere.

Your Mom?! Holy crap, that's a source that hadn't occurred to me. Good job getting it together - that must have been a tough row to hoe.

There are loads of us. And I wonder if our parents even know.

My family recipe, taught to me decades ago? Take normal discipline, punctuate it with crying and guilt of being a single parent, then sparingly frost with golden phrases like "you look just like your fucking old man," and "don't think with your dick like him", and "women who like him are whores...", and "look at how he sits" or "[laughing] look at his writing"...

Stir in some bad grades. Maybe a latent learning disability.

Let simmer alone.

Viola! You get a 12 year old pushed so low that they've spent their free time figuring out how animals are euthanized, how much to use on themselves, plotting ways to get their hands on it...

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#115

Post by w45yq3a » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 5:30 PM UTC

tempguy9999 wrote: post #59

TrackerFF wrote: post #28

Here's my take: For most people, success in life, is tied up with your self-confidence. If you think you're gonna fail, you probably are - unless you happen to be wildly talented at something, and can stumble your way to success. In fact, many people will not even try, because they lacked the confidence. It could be academia, work, relationships, hobbies, If you've been conditioned to believe that you: suck, have no…

Can confirm, and I'm a lot older than 30. It's done huge, irrecoverable damage, caused me a lot of serious mental problems (recovering now from a year of serious crap that made me unable to work for a year). I'm actually pretty mentally robust at core, but that got beaten out of me (or, I should say, out of us). Memory and personality problems etc. Drug problems. Few life/sex partners because you're so wound up you c…

Has anything helped? 26, similar situation, have slowly lost my identity / personal narrative after years of school and work thousands of miles from my family.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#116

Post by bullied » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 5:40 PM UTC

I was bullied badly as a child and am permanently suicidal, with no trusting relationships and failed life: homeless, mentally ruined, no career, assets, accomplishment, etc. It’s to the point where, decades after having said to self “people are shit and I don’t want to be alive anymore” as a child, I turned down a million dollar inheritance to keep close to a permanently suicidal self-imposed destiny. It’s difficult to say how much was due to the bullying, but I do think of these horrible memories daily and have done so for a long time.

Perhaps my life would have turned out similarly even without such traumatic childhood events. Then again, I’m a pretty cynical person who simply doesn’t give a shit about being alive, due to believing people are consistently low quality in seemingly all walks of life. The bullies from my childhood, on the other hand, have successful, normal lives. As I recall, the bullying occurred at school as a child, at university, at work, and in public by strangers has occurred consistently in any walk of life

Bullying seems to be a valid filtering process, as I was the weaker genetic offspring who correspondingly didn’t procreate. Meanwhile, I’ve spent decades immersed in disdain for my own species and self.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#117

Post by tempguy9999 » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 5:54 PM UTC

w45yq3a wrote: post #115

tempguy9999 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm, and I'm a lot older than 30. It's done huge, irrecoverable damage, caused me a lot of serious mental problems (recovering now from a year of serious crap that made me unable to work for a year). I'm actually pretty mentally robust at core, but that got beaten out of me (or, I should say, out of us). Memory and personality problems etc. Drug problems. Few life/sex partners because you're so wound up you c…

Has anything helped? 26, similar situation, have slowly lost my identity / personal narrative after years of school and work thousands of miles from my family.

WRT "...and work thousands of miles from my family" I don't think you understand. Read my last para carefully.

In answer, and this is risky as talking about drugs can be very misleading; give you too much hope they'll work for you, or perhaps just add to your woes.

* prozac removed the hideous clinical depression that was caused by what I went through. It was not a quick or easy process, and the removal still left a terrible after-effect that lasted many years. Something like that doesn't just disappear politely.

* Mushrooms helped resolve some issues, but not as much as MDMA

* MDMA. The first time I took it it showed my brain was another way to be. Something called 'happy' and 'relaxed'. I guess that's when I could start to become human. See another guy's comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21213649 but my experience was much later in life than his.

* The above, along with plenty of time. But life is very finite and I'm running out of road.

contrariwise:

* No form of talking therapy was of use. It is good for some people it just wasn't for me.

* Alcohol is a liability in these situations for me.

Using drugs worked somewhat for me but I don't know if they are appropriate for you. They certainly can add brand new dangers. In fact I feel maybe lack of human contact is the problem in your life? Some kind of talking therapy may be more helpful. Good luck.

Edit: One more thing that helped. It's too easy to focus on one's own situation but however bad things get, someone has it worse. The guys sleeping on the street in midwinter, those with agonising arthritis, there are many more and you will have met some... When it gets bad, remember what you don't have to deal with. It helped me, a little.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#118

Post by zozbot234 » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 6:39 PM UTC

maceurt wrote: post #100

zozbot234 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, guess what's the biggest "problem with (the) school" - the inability to get away from a bad environment. And you can't fix that with counseling alone - you actually have to figure out who the worst offenders are, and punish them consistently. The more you can deprive those folks of the social influence among their peers that's what they crave most, the better for everyone else.

"The more you can punish people who are broken socially the more they learn" Punishing a kid is not going to help them get over the fact that their mom abuses them or they don't have a dad or that they are not safe in their neighborhood, etc. Punishment is good, but it can further traumatize or ingrain a kid into their bad behavior. Speaking from personal experience, I remember in elementary school I got very harshly…

It doesn't have to be "very harsh" punishment. What's more important is that it be consistent.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#119

Post by wallace_f » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 6:46 PM UTC

neogodless wrote: post #91

empath75 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it started with bullying from my mom and continued with bullying in school. The only thing that pulled me out of it was time and MDMA. I don’t think I got my shit together until my mid 30s. Now I’ve got a family and a successful career. But I could have very easily have ended up drunk in a gutter somewhere.

This always tends to surprise people, which is encouraging - most mom's probably do not bully their children - but it might also be an unrecognized issue. I would describe it differently, so I don't think I had it as bad as you, but I would say that my parents did not adequately prepare me for responding to bullying, and I likely did the exact wrong things as a response. I cried. I showed weakness. And the bullying c…

If most people experience it, it wouldn't tend to surprise most people. But it probably does happen more often than most would believe.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#120

Post by wallace_f » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 6:56 PM UTC

zhwang wrote: post #84

bane wrote: post #62

I've never understood why schools seem so reticent to enforce zero-tolerance policies against bullying. In my experience at least, every time bullying seems to be a problem at a school, it's because the environment allows it to occur. Schools will eagerly put in place various other zero-tolerance policies, like no fighting. So if you dare defend yourself against such a social predator, you are taught a lesson by such…

I was at a high school that laid down a zero-tolerance policy against bullying. In practice, zero-tolerance turned into a blanket "we don't want to put up with any disruptions" policy. Provoking an outburst out of a target meant consequences for the victim that could be as bad or worse than the aggressor's.

It's hard when adults do the same thing. I mean not just to the kids at school, but in all of life. How different in essence is using your power to artificially increase the price of healthcare, such as with insulin or in a hundred other examples, for your profit different than stealing someone's lunch money, or making jokes at their expense?