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Going Vegan Won’t Save the Planet

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Re: Going Vegan Won’t Save the Planet

#91

Post by falcolas »

loblollyboy wrote: post #80
falcolas wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am being a bit selfish - but I think that applies even to philanthropists. They do it because it makes them feel good, or to atone for past sins, or to make future generations look upon them as "good". But I also disagree that my individual effort will have even the smallest effect. I'm one of nine billion. We frequently underestimate how big a number that is, and how insignificant the individual is when looked at…

You are not the only person in this world. Maybe the change will need to be forced upon us, but there are big changes that started grass-roots

No, I'm not the only person in the world. But I'm also not very unique in most of my point of views. There's a lot of people who, when asked these same questions will provide very similar answers (especially once you move past any "politeness").

Re: Going Vegan Won’t Save the Planet

#92

Post by c22 »

vzidex wrote: post #26
falcolas wrote: post #14

I'm going to say something very unpopular: If your plan to save the world includes requiring all 9 billion people to fundamentally change their lives (especially if its perceived as a degradation of their current quality of life), it's never going to work. Now I'll speak for myself. I will not go vegan, given the current offering of vegan foodstuffs. It just doesn't taste as good. I know it may be better for me than…

Current generation here (I'm 20). There's a lot of steps you can take without decreasing your quality of life - is that cut of steak _really_ that important to your quality of life? If, aware of the problem of climate change AND of the solutions, you choose to do nothing then you won't just be an asshole in the eyes of the next 20 generations, you're an asshole in the eyes of my generation too.

The OP and billions of other meat eaters may be assholes, but I think it's a salient point that any solution will have to cater to these assholes to be effective. Just calling them assholes probably wont influence them to change their ways.

Re: Going Vegan Won’t Save the Planet

#93

Post by NickBusey »

wysifnwyg wrote: post #87
NickBusey wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt this is true in the least, but do you have a source I could provide to others?

https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emis...

Hmm interesting, thanks. That is all GHG emissions though. I wonder if there are numbers around buying produce or meat at the store, how much of the GHG emissions tied to that product are agricultural vs the packaging, transportation, etc.

In other words, how big of a difference does 'buying local' have when buying food? Just wondering aloud, not necessarily asking anyone in particular.

Re: Going Vegan Won’t Save the Planet

#94

Post by wysifnwyg »

NickBusey wrote: post #93
wysifnwyg wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emis...

Hmm interesting, thanks. That is all GHG emissions though. I wonder if there are numbers around buying produce or meat at the store, how much of the GHG emissions tied to that product are agricultural vs the packaging, transportation, etc. In other words, how big of a difference does 'buying local' have when buying food? Just wondering aloud, not necessarily asking anyone in particular.

I use to have the sources somewhere but I'm not finding them at the moment. So let's just do this as a mind exercise.

Take into consideration that while ships are tremendously more efficient, they travel significantly more miles. When comparing a single shipping container, a cargo ship burns 0.3 gallons of bunker fuel per hour and a semi truck burns 10 gallons of diesel. If you add distance into the calculation, a cargo ship from Brazil to NYC takes 122 gallons of bunker fuel while something produced locally takes 1/12 of that in diesel. Further more, bunker fuel exceptionally worse than diesel when comparing emissions.

This is just for the transport side of things too. The electricity production in many other countries produce an increased amount of green house gasses compared to the United States.

Re: Going Vegan Won’t Save the Planet

#95

Post by vfc1 »

baxtr wrote: post #50
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Farms grow crops that you can't eat, to feed to animals that you can. Name the protein and fat sources that will replace meat. Tofu? We already grow soy for animal feed as a cash crop and it's pesticide and fertilizer intensive, and if people eat it directly instead of as an animal feed additive its production will grow at the expense of forests and soil health. Nuts? I'm all for perennial woody agriculture, but the…

How much protein do you think a normal person needs? Valter Longo recommends ".31 to 0.36 grams per pound of body weight). That comes to 40 to 47 grams of proteins per day for a person weighing 130 pounds, and 60 to 70 grams of protein per day for someone weighing 200 to 220 pounds." Why would you really need meat at all if those numbers are correct? https://valterlongo.com/daily-longevity-diet-for-adults/

It's a myth you get more than enough protein on a plant-based diet. I hear that those numbers are bloated and that most people would do fine with 30 to 40g.

Soy would give all the protein you need and then some. Eat soy, lentils, beans, chickpeas. Awesome food for you. Worst case, pea protein powder for body building, but indeed whole foods is ideal instead of highly processed foods.

You should watch the Game Changers movie for more information on vegan body building. Not that I would know anything about it, I haven't been to a gym in 10 years.

Re: Going Vegan Won’t Save the Planet

#96

Post by vfc1 »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #28
vfc1 wrote: post #3

> farms growing crops have been just as destructive as those raising animals This comparison does not make sense. What this reporter and the public, in general, fail to realize still in 2019, is that most of the farms producing crops are doing so to produce cattle feed. The majority of agricultural fields are planted to feed livestock, not humans. Only a relatively small amount of crops goes directly to humans. This…

Farms grow crops that you can't eat, to feed to animals that you can. Name the protein and fat sources that will replace meat. Tofu? We already grow soy for animal feed as a cash crop and it's pesticide and fertilizer intensive, and if people eat it directly instead of as an animal feed additive its production will grow at the expense of forests and soil health. Nuts? I'm all for perennial woody agriculture, but the…

> farms grow crops that you can't eat, to feed to animals that you can.

You can then grow crops that people can eat instead, and feed those people using much less resources.

> Cutting animals out entirely actually leads to a nutrient deficiency.

This is scientifically just not true, a proper plant-based diet is adequate to all stages of life - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

Re: Going Vegan Won’t Save the Planet

#97

Post by vfc1 »

natethegreatt wrote: post #56
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Farms grow crops that you can't eat, to feed to animals that you can. Name the protein and fat sources that will replace meat. Tofu? We already grow soy for animal feed as a cash crop and it's pesticide and fertilizer intensive, and if people eat it directly instead of as an animal feed additive its production will grow at the expense of forests and soil health. Nuts? I'm all for perennial woody agriculture, but the…

The only nutrient deficiency that is rather difficult to circumvent with a vegan diet is Vitamin B. Meat is one of the only places humans can obtain it. Everything else is trivial to obtain via plants.

You mean B12? This is produced by bacteria in the dust. It gets injected to animals in factory farms, that's why they have it in that environment. We can also take the supplement directly.

Re: Going Vegan Won’t Save the Planet

#98

Post by davidivadavid »

sprflyprgrmrguy wrote: post #85
mancerayder wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normal person? What about abnormal athletes, or people who do weight training? How many peas are required if you want both a calorie surplus and 1 to 1.5 grams of protein per lb of body weight?

Seems to be 4g of protein per 85g (1/2cup) of peas. I weight ~72 kg (~160lb); recommendation is 1.5-2g of protein per kg, so I'd need 142g of protein per day on the high end, which equates to roughly 3017.5g, 71 cups, of peas daily. Frozen walmart sweet peas are .84c per bag, each bag contain 4 servings, roughly $7.45 in peas per day. For comparison, chicken breast @ 100g (3.5oz or .45 lb) is 31g of protein. I'd need…

I'm not sure how realistic eating 3kg of peas per day is. People would just get bored real fast, if they even manage to ingest that volume of food.

Re: Going Vegan Won’t Save the Planet

#99

Post by cmrdporcupine »

vfc1 wrote: post #96
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Farms grow crops that you can't eat, to feed to animals that you can. Name the protein and fat sources that will replace meat. Tofu? We already grow soy for animal feed as a cash crop and it's pesticide and fertilizer intensive, and if people eat it directly instead of as an animal feed additive its production will grow at the expense of forests and soil health. Nuts? I'm all for perennial woody agriculture, but the…

> farms grow crops that you can't eat, to feed to animals that you can. You can then grow crops that people can eat instead, and feed those people using much less resources. > Cutting animals out entirely actually leads to a nutrient deficiency. This is scientifically just not true, a proper plant-based diet is adequate to all stages of life - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

You didn't read. I was talking about soil nutrient deficiency, not people.

Crops need NPK. Manure is a great source.

Re: Going Vegan Won’t Save the Planet

#100

Post by cmrdporcupine »

mantoto wrote: post #67
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Farms grow crops that you can't eat, to feed to animals that you can. Name the protein and fat sources that will replace meat. Tofu? We already grow soy for animal feed as a cash crop and it's pesticide and fertilizer intensive, and if people eat it directly instead of as an animal feed additive its production will grow at the expense of forests and soil health. Nuts? I'm all for perennial woody agriculture, but the…

I'm not a vegan or vegetarian but your statement is utterly wrong. We do not need meat. Eating meat is less efficient in production then plant based. Inform your self properly. And yes we have many countries with people who do not eat meat every day.

"Inform your self properly" is a pretty presumptive and arrogant statement.

My wife was vegan for several years. A very educated and committed one. She had chronic health problems that went completely away once she started eating modest amounts of meat and fish.

Please recognize the diversity of human biology and cultural experience. A few hundred thousand years of omnivorous lifestyle can't be waved away with strident statements.

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