The Isle of Man is not in the UK • Hacker News Board

Re: The Isle of Man is not in the UK

#161

Post by simonh » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 4:35 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #114

simonh wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear this theory a lot, but the fact is most of the support for Brexit came from low income households, and people in low skilled or manual work. Generally the higher the household income, the lower the support for Brexit, even at the higher income levels. https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/brexit-vote-explained-poverty-...

That's why the super-wealthy fund propaganda campaigns aimed at those folks.

People sell propaganda like that because it sells. Fear and xenophobia have always sold newspapers. It’s the selling newspapers that they’re getting rich from, Brexit is just a side effect.

When he was a journalist in Brussels, Boris Johnson used to turn up to news briefs and ask his fellow hacks “So what’s going on, and why is it bad for Britain”. The papers cheerfully blame Brussels for outrageous new EU rules, eating away at British sovereignty, er, sponsored by the British government. Johnson even railed against EU transport rules he campaigned for as Transport secretary.

Bashing foreigners is ever green, as a source of tabloid outrage journalism.

Re: The Isle of Man is not in the UK

#162

Post by pytester » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 4:37 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #151

pytester wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>While he and his party have never had any clear position on it, by design. Their position is to negotiate another deal (if possible) and put it to a public vote, and put the existing deal to a vote if not. It's pretty clear albeit not so easy to understand for the perennially simple minded (for whom simple messages like "remain at all costs" and "we must execute the glorious brexit revolution on october 31st" appeal…

> Their position is to negotiate another deal (if possible) and put it to a public vote That's not really much more information - revoke if the deal is not accepted? What do they actually want from the deal? What is the party's true desired outcome, being in the EU or not being in the EU? It's very hard to form an accurate picture of Corbyn. I can't think of anything impressive he's done, and he's doing tremendously…

>That's not really much more information - revoke if the deal is not accepted?

If the deal is not accepted, then referendum on may's deal vs remain, and they will campaign to remain. As I said.

>What do they actually want from the deal?

Single market and customs union as per the manifesto.

>What is the party's true desired outcome, being in the EU or not being in the EU?

Soft brexit.

>It's very hard to form an accurate picture of Corbyn

It's really not, but it's really easy to hear on the news that "it's confusing" and form an opinion that "it's confusing" even if it's actually, y'know, not

Re: The Isle of Man is not in the UK

#163

Post by pytester » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 4:39 PM UTC

cgiles wrote: post #156

pjc50 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their position is to negotiate another deal (if possible) and put it to a public vote That's not really much more information - revoke if the deal is not accepted? What do they actually want from the deal? What is the party's true desired outcome, being in the EU or not being in the EU? It's very hard to form an accurate picture of Corbyn. I can't think of anything impressive he's done, and he's doing tremendously…

> What do they actually want from the deal? The conventional wisdom is that the party is split between Remainers and Leavers, and that Corbyn himself is a closet Leaver who wants to leave so he can get out from under EU rules on state aid and bring about a glorious socialist revolution. If this is remotely true, then Corbyn's personal aim is to help the Tories to a no-deal Brexit, or even a hard Brexit under the WA,…

>The conventional wisdom is that the party is split between Remainers and Leavers, and that Corbyn himself is a closet Leaver who wants to leave so he can get out from under EU rules on state aid and bring about a glorious socialist revolution.

More of an absurd conspiracy theory than conventional wisdom, that.

>If this is remotely true, then Corbyn's personal aim is to help the Tories to a no-deal Brexit

Which I suppose he would achieve by passing a law that prohibits the tories from achieving a no deal brexit?

If he truly didn't want that he probably wouldn't have whipped for it.

Wouldn't be the first time his position was completely misrepresented though... and the motive for the various parts of the media owned by tax avoiders to do this is pretty obvious.

>he cannot be seen to be doing this.

How convenient for the conspiracy theory that he does and says the exact opposite of what he truly "wants" to do because he can't be "seen" to be doing it.

Re: The Isle of Man is not in the UK

#164

Post by toasterlovin » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 4:40 PM UTC

frobozz wrote: post #135

nicky0 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes the "they didn't know what they were really voting for" argument. Insulting and pathetic.

This is like when people say that all racists voted to leave, and someone pipes up with "I voted to leave and I'm not racist, that's really insulting". You are confusing the direction of if and then. The referendum was won because people were swung to the leave side by the case made by the leave campaigners. A case full of immediately demonstrable lies. If at least 650000 of those people were specifically swung that…

Every single thing you just wrote applies to both sides of any political issue. That's politics: you get out there and advocate for a position and then people turn up and vote (or not). People being convinced to vote for something is not a sign that their vote is somehow invalid. It's literally how the political process works.

Re: The Isle of Man is not in the UK

#165

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 4:40 PM UTC

Stay_frostJebel wrote: post #86

> “Independence is a strong part of the character of the people of the island. We’re not part of the UK, or the British Isles – we’re Manx,” said Phil Gawne, a former politician on the island... Hmm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles > The British Isles are a group of islands in the North Atlantic off the north-western coast of continental Europe that consist of the islands of Great Britain, Ireland, the Is…

[deleted]

Re: The Isle of Man is not in the UK

#166

Post by pytester » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 4:42 PM UTC

cgiles wrote: post #154

pytester wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>While he and his party have never had any clear position on it, by design. Their position is to negotiate another deal (if possible) and put it to a public vote, and put the existing deal to a vote if not. It's pretty clear albeit not so easy to understand for the perennially simple minded (for whom simple messages like "remain at all costs" and "we must execute the glorious brexit revolution on october 31st" appeal…

> Their position is to negotiate another deal (if possible) and put it to a public vote, and put the existing deal to a vote if not. Yes, but even this very unclear proposition is a recent invention (last 3 months IIRC). Before that they had nothing. For 2+ years. > Unfortunately it isn't possible to make promises about what will be possible to negotiate with the EU. True enough -- to a point. But he could say what t…

>Before that they had nothing. For 2+ years.

This is simply not true. They made it perfectly clear that they wanted a deal with the customs union and single market.

>True enough -- to a point. But he could say what the general outline of the UK's goals in the negotiations will be and how the strategy/objectives/redlines will differ from TM's and Boris's.

Could and did. The media has done a grand job of obfuscation about this despite the fact that it was right there in the manifesto.

>He cannot say for certain how the EU will respond to any proposal, although honestly Barnier has been crystal clear about what is required of the UK and what the options are.

What Barnier has been less clear about is whether they are prepared to negotiate a new deal at all after May's deal. The EU actually has flip flopped on that issue and its mind probably still isn't made up even now.

>And does Corbyn even know the difference between the Single Market and Customs Union? I have seen no indication that he does.

I suppose you have seen an indication that he doesn't?

Re: The Isle of Man is not in the UK

#167

Post by sokoloff » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 4:43 PM UTC

marcus_holmes wrote: post #149

pmjordan wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

while I had obeyed all the rules at the time, they were retroactively changing the rules and I needed to declare all the interest I had earned on my offshore account over the last 8 years. Are you sure they changed the rules? It sounds like they might have realised they hadn't been implementing/enforcing the European Union Savings Directive (EUSD) [1] correctly, and therefore retroactively enforced the rules. Or perh…

does it matter? there were some rules, that I was obeying, then there were some other rules, that were retroactively enforced. From my point of view, same same ;)

Yes, I think it does matter. It's arbitrary and capricious if HMRC can change the rules and retroactively apply them.

It's totally reasonable (absent a statute of limitations lapse) IMO for them to go back and retroactively enforce rules that you weren't following once they detect that. (I would even entertain that it would be unreasonable for them to not do so.)

Re: The Isle of Man is not in the UK

#168

Post by the_watcher » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 4:46 PM UTC

peteretep wrote: post #15

Isle of Man has zero percent corporate tax on (most) money earned outside the Isle of Man, which includes money earned in the UK. If you're a non-resident citizen of the UK, you can deposit your dividends from your Isle of Man company in your UK bank account, tax free. For the time being, IOM companies have GB VAT numbers, and a banking system that integrates seamlessly with the UK one, as well as a postal system (qu…

Can you actually use the money while you're not living in UK?

To use a simple example, say I'm a British citizen living in the US who is a freelancer (let's assume I'm non-resident, not just non-domiciled). Let's say I have US citizenship as well to get around any immigration issues. I create a company in the Isle of Man (assume I meet whatever qualifications are needed to do this). Can I just deposit my checks in the UK bank account, pay no taxes, and use the money in the US without violating any British laws? What about when traveling to the UK or EU? I'm almost sure I'd be violating American tax law, but I'm now curious how to put this into practice.

Re: The Isle of Man is not in the UK

#169

Post by NeedMoreTea » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 4:47 PM UTC

cgiles wrote: post #145

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we're stuck with a "government" that's lost every vote they called, and a no-deal crash out looks the only option. Realistically that was always the only option without moving some of those infamous "red lines", or accepting Theresa May's deal. I don't see room for anything else. So the no-deal that was explicitly ruled out during the referendum campaign. The Swiss invalidate referendums when the electorate haven…

I have found the best source of information about Brexit, although it certainly has its own bias, to be eureferendum.com . They have long advocated for Efta/EEA membership as the first move for the UK before gradually disentangling from EU directives. IMV (I'm not British) the only sane option was some form of soft Brexit. Which was the only way to avoid most of the economic damage and also prevent hordes of Leavers…

See this is where it gets truly silly. You may not be wrong about some form of soft-Brexit, or EEA status, but whichever level of closeness you consider that is not "hard Brexit" would have required dropping one of the UK's "red line" issues. Anything else that was not Theresa May's deal needed the EU offering cake and cookies for free. It wasn't so much she couldn't sell it as the hardliners of the Tory party wouldn't take it. For 3 years the UK's negotiating position has been "la, la, la, not listening", whilst asking for the impossible (or cake).

Michel Barnier, the EU's chief negotiator summarised it all beautifully in a single slide he put out in about 2016 or 17. Each level of softer Brexit available is ruled out by a UK red line.

Should you want a breakdown, CGP Grey did a short video about "that slide". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agZ0xISi40E

Re: The Isle of Man is not in the UK

#170

Post by ceejayoz » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 4:49 PM UTC

toasterlovin wrote: post #164

frobozz wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like when people say that all racists voted to leave, and someone pipes up with "I voted to leave and I'm not racist, that's really insulting". You are confusing the direction of if and then. The referendum was won because people were swung to the leave side by the case made by the leave campaigners. A case full of immediately demonstrable lies. If at least 650000 of those people were specifically swung that…

Every single thing you just wrote applies to both sides of any political issue. That's politics: you get out there and advocate for a position and then people turn up and vote (or not). People being convinced to vote for something is not a sign that their vote is somehow invalid. It's literally how the political process works.

> People being convinced to vote for something is not a sign that their vote is somehow invalid.

Not inherently, but being convinced of falsehoods by a propaganda campaign should be of concern.

If you voted for McCain because you believe Republicans have better tax policies than Democrats, I'm fine with that. If you did it because you believe Obama's a secret Muslim infiltrator from Kenya, I'm not.