Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and Energy • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and Energy

#221

Post by hourislate » Wed, Oct 09, 2019, 11:28 PM UTC

vannevar wrote: post #150

JackFr wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to have ignored the parts about agricultural and construction inputs. Additionally, the manufacturing output of the US economy has continued to grow in the 'post-peak' period.

No, I read the whole thing. It talks about imports and exports of raw material, but excludes the import of those same materials in the form of goods manufactured elsewhere. For example, raw copper would be included, but copper coils in a refrigerator manufactured in Korea would not. That seems like an extremely arbitrary distinction, and one which would likely change the graphs presented significantly.

I was also thinking about this. We manufacture more in dollar amounts but I'm curious if that translates into quantity amounts. Higher tech manufacturing like chips instead of nuts and bolts, beams, industrial equipment, etc.

I have to agree with you. The article is fatally flawed unless it can address these issues you mention. I'm surprised the readers here didn't catch it but I suppose they were busy discussing how quantities are priced at the supermarket.

Re: Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and Energy

#222

Post by esoterica » Wed, Oct 09, 2019, 11:33 PM UTC

r00fus wrote: post #136

anon1m0us wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same is true of coffee. A 1 pound coffee can is the same size it always was but now has 10 or 11 ounces of coffee in it.

This is why I prefer buying bulk when I can (with reusable containers/bags [1]). Bulk Coffee + airtight/cool storage hasn't resulted in bad coffee for me. Why put up with deceptive packaging? [1] Yes I know that most of that product came arrived in even more packaging, but doing what I can for now.

Coffee goes stale very quickly. I wouldn’t do that if I were you.

Re: Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and Energy

#223

Post by chrisseaton » Wed, Oct 09, 2019, 11:33 PM UTC

pjmorris wrote: post #96

Someone I know posted a picture of an empty rolodex today, saying that they'd moved their friends to 'the cloud.' I'm sure you can look at your phone apps and see other things that would've been physical objects ten or twenty years ago. So, that's one way material use has, at least, shifted. There are two other trends that worry me more. One is visible in the freezer section at the grocery store; a "half-gallon" of i…

> There are two other trends that worry me more. One is visible in the freezer section at the grocery store; a "half-gallon" of ice cream is no longer actually a half-gallon. Many other food items have shrunk.

A half-gallon seems like an absolutely obscene volume of ice-cream. That's over two litres! Why would anyone possibly need ice-cream measured by the gallon? Isn't it good that sizes are reducing from that much?

Re: Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and Energy

#224

Post by CapitalistCartr » Wed, Oct 09, 2019, 11:40 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #223

pjmorris wrote: post #96

Someone I know posted a picture of an empty rolodex today, saying that they'd moved their friends to 'the cloud.' I'm sure you can look at your phone apps and see other things that would've been physical objects ten or twenty years ago. So, that's one way material use has, at least, shifted. There are two other trends that worry me more. One is visible in the freezer section at the grocery store; a "half-gallon" of i…

> There are two other trends that worry me more. One is visible in the freezer section at the grocery store; a "half-gallon" of ice cream is no longer actually a half-gallon. Many other food items have shrunk. A half-gallon seems like an absolutely obscene volume of ice-cream. That's over two litres! Why would anyone possibly need ice-cream measured by the gallon? Isn't it good that sizes are reducing from that much?

A half-gallon is slightly less than two liters, and is not intended to be one serving. Its a bulk purchase to serve a family, usually multiple times.

(Although I have eaten one in one go when I was a young man.)

Re: Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and Energy

#225

Post by pm90 » Wed, Oct 09, 2019, 11:41 PM UTC

pjmorris wrote: post #96

Someone I know posted a picture of an empty rolodex today, saying that they'd moved their friends to 'the cloud.' I'm sure you can look at your phone apps and see other things that would've been physical objects ten or twenty years ago. So, that's one way material use has, at least, shifted. There are two other trends that worry me more. One is visible in the freezer section at the grocery store; a "half-gallon" of i…

I'm only slightly surprised that a comment full of anecdote without a shred of actual scientific evidence is the top comment in this story.

MBA's have optimized everything... which is great! We don't need to spend incredible amounts on labor. We don't need to buy incredibly large homes. Make work more efficient... its the only way to compete with low cost emerging economic markets. Specialization and efficiencies are the only way to remain competitive.

From my perspective, the only real structural damage has been done by the success of concentrated moneyed interests in regulatory capture. We need to tax these efficient corporations and individuals fairly, and use those tax dollars to invest in universal healthcare, environmental protection and education.

Re: Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and Energy

#226

Post by toast0 » Wed, Oct 09, 2019, 11:41 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #223

pjmorris wrote: post #96

Someone I know posted a picture of an empty rolodex today, saying that they'd moved their friends to 'the cloud.' I'm sure you can look at your phone apps and see other things that would've been physical objects ten or twenty years ago. So, that's one way material use has, at least, shifted. There are two other trends that worry me more. One is visible in the freezer section at the grocery store; a "half-gallon" of i…

> There are two other trends that worry me more. One is visible in the freezer section at the grocery store; a "half-gallon" of ice cream is no longer actually a half-gallon. Many other food items have shrunk. A half-gallon seems like an absolutely obscene volume of ice-cream. That's over two litres! Why would anyone possibly need ice-cream measured by the gallon? Isn't it good that sizes are reducing from that much?

You don't eat all the ice cream in one sitting. If this random ice cream[1] is an indication, serving size is half a cup, so a half gallon should provide 16 servings. If you like the flavor, why not buy 16 servings at a time; if you live in a household with four people, that's 4 sittings of ice cream.

[1] https://www.target.com/p/breyers-original-ice-cream-natural-...

Re: Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and Energy

#227

Post by danans » Wed, Oct 09, 2019, 11:44 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #223

pjmorris wrote: post #96

Someone I know posted a picture of an empty rolodex today, saying that they'd moved their friends to 'the cloud.' I'm sure you can look at your phone apps and see other things that would've been physical objects ten or twenty years ago. So, that's one way material use has, at least, shifted. There are two other trends that worry me more. One is visible in the freezer section at the grocery store; a "half-gallon" of i…

> There are two other trends that worry me more. One is visible in the freezer section at the grocery store; a "half-gallon" of ice cream is no longer actually a half-gallon. Many other food items have shrunk. A half-gallon seems like an absolutely obscene volume of ice-cream. That's over two litres! Why would anyone possibly need ice-cream measured by the gallon? Isn't it good that sizes are reducing from that much?

Besides the fact that American portion sizes are generally larger, with the related implications to health and food waste, a half gallon of ice cream is usually for many people, like at a party.

When I was a kid, we'd buy whole gallons of ice cream, and that would last us at least a week!

Re: Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and Energy

#228

Post by chrisseaton » Wed, Oct 09, 2019, 11:44 PM UTC

toast0 wrote: post #226

chrisseaton wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are two other trends that worry me more. One is visible in the freezer section at the grocery store; a "half-gallon" of ice cream is no longer actually a half-gallon. Many other food items have shrunk. A half-gallon seems like an absolutely obscene volume of ice-cream. That's over two litres! Why would anyone possibly need ice-cream measured by the gallon? Isn't it good that sizes are reducing from that much?

You don't eat all the ice cream in one sitting. If this random ice cream[1] is an indication, serving size is half a cup, so a half gallon should provide 16 servings. If you like the flavor, why not buy 16 servings at a time; if you live in a household with four people, that's 4 sittings of ice cream. [1] https://www.target.com/p/breyers-original-ice-cream-natural-...

In the UK I don't think even the largest ice cream comes in more than 1 litre. Most is around 0.5 litres. And even that for a family seems like a hell of a lot of ice cream. One litre is a crazy party volume of ice cream. A half-gallon sounds absolutely bonkers.

https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/shop/browse/groceries/frozen/i...

Re: Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and Energy

#229

Post by pm90 » Wed, Oct 09, 2019, 11:48 PM UTC

rdiddly wrote: post #209

rdiddly wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, or to be a bit cute about it: "Does the 'America' graph include the 'China' part of America?"

Not that China is part of America. More like the two are squabbling lovers locked in an embrace so tight that it's literally "'til death do us part."

Doesn't matter. The amazing thing about trade is actually how much of a great tool it is in bringing countries and societies closer despite all other differences.

Said in other ways, China and the US may not like each other, but they will never go to war with each other as long as they trade with each other.

Re: Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and Energy

#230

Post by danans » Wed, Oct 09, 2019, 11:58 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #53

From the article: It suggests that economic growth in a mature economy does not necessarily increase the pressure on the world's reserves of natural resources and on its physical environment. Jesse Asubel has been looking at "dematerialization" for a long time[1] but it has only been relatively recently, now with a couple of decades of additional data to look at, that it is getting the attention I think it deserves.…

> The systems guy in me has experience that all exponential trends are s-curves

A friend of mine visited a financial planner inquiring about saving for his children's university education.

The planner took the last the last 20 years of education inflation and extrapolated it out 15 years, and recommended my friend put away 2.5k per month today per child today to cover it.

My friend didn't hire the planner, on the reason that we will probably be post-revolution (which would cause this curve to become an S) before we get to the point where you need to save 30k per kid per year over 15 years to pay for university.