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Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and Energy

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Re: Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and Energy

#141

Post by nostromo »

twoslide wrote: post #119

It really only makes sense to understand the world economy as a whole. On this scale, consumption (e.g. steel production or oil consumption) continue to grow [1,2]. Americans are in the fortunate position of selling services (e.g. finance, advertising, information management) and consuming finished products from the rest of the world, but the American economy should not be considered a closed system. [1] https://en.w…

> This consumption takes into account not only domestic production of the resource but also imports and exports.

Re: Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and Energy

#142

Post by TeMPOraL »

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #116
pjmorris wrote: post #96

Someone I know posted a picture of an empty rolodex today, saying that they'd moved their friends to 'the cloud.' I'm sure you can look at your phone apps and see other things that would've been physical objects ten or twenty years ago. So, that's one way material use has, at least, shifted. There are two other trends that worry me more. One is visible in the freezer section at the grocery store; a "half-gallon" of i…

In the EU, shops are required to display the price per , i. e. all coffees have a (usually smaller, but readable) Euro/500g price. There used to be an even more drastic law proscribing certain sizes and disallowing all others. Flour would only be available in 500g and 1kg bags, for example. They got rid of it, possibly because they got sick of people making fun of EU regulations (that's what happened with the famous…

I didn't know there was such regulation, and now I wish we could get it back. Not a month goes by without me or my wife noticing another product in the supermarket that lost a few percent of its mass while retaining its price.

Re: Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and Energy

#143

Post by impatientduck »

nostromo wrote: post #141
twoslide wrote: post #119

It really only makes sense to understand the world economy as a whole. On this scale, consumption (e.g. steel production or oil consumption) continue to grow [1,2]. Americans are in the fortunate position of selling services (e.g. finance, advertising, information management) and consuming finished products from the rest of the world, but the American economy should not be considered a closed system. [1] https://en.w…

> This consumption takes into account not only domestic production of the resource but also imports and exports.

But, importantly, not the current account balance (https://www.bea.gov/news/blog/2019-03-27/us-current-account-...).

Re: Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and Energy

#144

Post by JackFr »

twoslide wrote: post #119

It really only makes sense to understand the world economy as a whole. On this scale, consumption (e.g. steel production or oil consumption) continue to grow [1,2]. Americans are in the fortunate position of selling services (e.g. finance, advertising, information management) and consuming finished products from the rest of the world, but the American economy should not be considered a closed system. [1] https://en.w…

Your point is well taken, insofar as manufactured goods, but does not explain the decline in agricultural and construction inputs. In agriculture we're (currently) a net exporter and construction is non-traded.

Re: Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and Energy

#145

Post by impatientduck »

pjmorris wrote: post #96

Someone I know posted a picture of an empty rolodex today, saying that they'd moved their friends to 'the cloud.' I'm sure you can look at your phone apps and see other things that would've been physical objects ten or twenty years ago. So, that's one way material use has, at least, shifted. There are two other trends that worry me more. One is visible in the freezer section at the grocery store; a "half-gallon" of i…

Exactly. And we have that magnesium and other macro-nutrients are declining in fruits and vegetables (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6163803/). Unregulated capitalism will grow "food" in the form of apple shaped buckets of water and sell as many as they can as the soil is exhausted.

We're doomed.

Re: Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and Energy

#147

Post by JackFr »

vannevar wrote: post #138
twoslide wrote: post #119

It really only makes sense to understand the world economy as a whole. On this scale, consumption (e.g. steel production or oil consumption) continue to grow [1,2]. Americans are in the fortunate position of selling services (e.g. finance, advertising, information management) and consuming finished products from the rest of the world, but the American economy should not be considered a closed system. [1] https://en.w…

Yes, leaving out the consumption of materials in the form of goods manufactured elsewhere is such a giant, glaring hole in the logic that it strains credibility to believe it's mere oversight. It looks like deliberate misinformation.

You seem to have ignored the parts about agricultural and construction inputs.

Additionally, the manufacturing output of the US economy has continued to grow in the 'post-peak' period.

Re: Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and Energy

#148

Post by bluGill »

SllX wrote: post #68
georgeburdell wrote: post #39

I didn’t see it addressed in the article so I’ll slip on my tinfoil hat for a moment... Could this be related to growing income and wealth inequality? Poor people buy less stuff, and presumably rich people get rich by not buying more stuff commensurate with their incomes. Even the falling fertilizer consumption might be explained if poorer people are shifting to more processed junk food. The article notes 1970 as the…

I don’t know enough about economics, nearly enough, in fact I’ve decided after listening to an economics podcast for the past month (still working through the backlog) that I’m essentially a know-nothing today. That said, I have some questions if there’s an economics know-something around here, because there might be an alternative explanation than just a rise in inequality. For one thing, to maintain the standard of…

There is a factor. The energy it takes to melt metal is hard to get around. The US manufactures more than we are given credit for, and there have been improvements in efficiency, but it is still energy intensive and hard to get around it. Thus services are a factor in that they need less energy.

Other factors:

Things last longer. (when there isn't planned obsolesce) We have learned to make things higher quality, so even when we make something the energy cost to replace it latter is deferred a little.

The miles people drive isn't increasing. Something as somehow got people to drive more and more each year. Services is probably a factor in that: why drive to X when you can stay home... (walking - or even driving someplace closer count as staying home)

It is really hard to know which factors are important though.

Re: Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and Energy

#149

Post by anon1m0us »

r00fus wrote: post #136
anon1m0us wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same is true of coffee. A 1 pound coffee can is the same size it always was but now has 10 or 11 ounces of coffee in it.

This is why I prefer buying bulk when I can (with reusable containers/bags [1]). Bulk Coffee + airtight/cool storage hasn't resulted in bad coffee for me. Why put up with deceptive packaging? [1] Yes I know that most of that product came arrived in even more packaging, but doing what I can for now.

I guess what I am learning about myself lately is that I have the power to lie to people and convince them to do things they don't want to do or don't know better.

People know this about me. They know it almost instantly. I sense it in them.

I sense the same about other people. They have that power over me.

However, I make an effort not to. Or, when I do, I work especially hard to steer them in the direction of their goals or somewhere that will benefit them. Even if it's at my own expense sometimes and that can be sad or disappointing.

And so, through that, I have come to resent people who don't think that way. Who think, "People won't look at the number of ounces in the can, they'll just see it's the same size and think they're getting the same amount."

It's a lie. Deception. It's wrong.

But yet, we allow it in society.

It's destroying us. It's all around us. Fake news. The US President. Marketing. Stack Overflow.

So, why put up with it? It's not that you even know you're putting up with it. Some of us do. Most don't. Scammers proliferate.

It's more like, How do we protect the innocent people? Why as a species, do we allow some of us to prey on others?

It doesn't seem good to me.

Re: Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and Energy

#150

Post by vannevar »

JackFr wrote: post #147
vannevar wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, leaving out the consumption of materials in the form of goods manufactured elsewhere is such a giant, glaring hole in the logic that it strains credibility to believe it's mere oversight. It looks like deliberate misinformation.

You seem to have ignored the parts about agricultural and construction inputs. Additionally, the manufacturing output of the US economy has continued to grow in the 'post-peak' period.

No, I read the whole thing. It talks about imports and exports of raw material, but excludes the import of those same materials in the form of goods manufactured elsewhere. For example, raw copper would be included, but copper coils in a refrigerator manufactured in Korea would not. That seems like an extremely arbitrary distinction, and one which would likely change the graphs presented significantly.
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